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Invisiblethe_Landotter
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We Doan Need No Steenking Guides!
    #4098722 - 04/26/05 02:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Further to "Mycelial Symbiosis & Its Effects On The Human Organism...

Note: at this level, if one insists on sharing the room with another or feels the need for a guide, ensure that said person is friendly... with all that word implies. Nasty surprises from suddenly alarmed or unsympathetic parties are no fun at all. Where you are going they simply cannot follow, so again, friendliness on their part is paramount...

Where you are going.

They simply.

Cannot.

Follow.

So why invite them in the first place? All friendliness aside, that's my question tonight. And of course, my answer to that question is dead obvious: don't. Don't invite one. You don't need a guide. In fact, a guide is possibly one of the worst things to have around while voyaging in the Shining Realms. My personal contention is, if you absolutely need a guide for your comfort and/or safety (more on the notion of "safety" in a bit) you shouldn't be experimenting with this stuff. Go get drunk instead, or smoke a little pot. Leave the real science to the professionals.

Basically, every trippers handbook since they started compiling the damn things has claimed the "psychedelic guide" (the guru, the cyber-shaman, really the stuck-up and pretentious prat if you wanna get technical) as indispensable to every trip. Bullshit. They're indispensable to the weak, the gullible, the easily frightened, and especially indispensable to the fractured sense-of-Self that tries so desperately to hang onto some semblance of coherency while being blasted to atoms in the raging noetic storm of the Shining Realms. Indispensable (as anchor, as lighthouse on the shore, as warm hand in the darkness, as whatever your fuzzy metaphor) to those for whom the true nature of Reality is simply too gGoddamn much.

And it is. It IS too gGoddamn much. It's all too much of a too too-muchness.

Which is not to say that it is a realm to be avoided. Not at all. In many deep and soul-satisfying ways the Shining Realms are a consumnation devoutly to be wished, as the bards would have it. SO devoutly to be wished and SO satisfying to the soul that the very idea of some lumbering straight person intruding upon this highly personal venture when the water gets rough should seem like purest anaethema to the sincere seeker. This is true no matter how many times the "guide" has travelled before. Thing is, any guide can claim to have charted league upon league of the Shining Realms, and in truth, he has. He (or she, let's not be sexist here) has looked upon things that no human eye has ever seen. Or will likely ever see again.

And that's my point. It is not at all obvious that we afficianados of the sacred plants are charting anything like concrete territory here. We go to the edge and we come back from that edge... but when we go back it's still the Edge with a capital E. It is not as if we've mapped it out and all is known. Which only adds to the continual freshness of the experience. Which also means that any self-professed guide is talking out his ass when he offers guide-type services to the novice explorer. There is no "guiding" through this. Here be dragons. With a dozen people in the room, still you are on your own.

It's solo all the way. And would you really have it any other way? Me, I'd rather have the dozen people outta the room.

Granted, for the novice (and the novice alone, I should make clear) the comfort of having a sympathetic person on hand when things get perhaps a little more crazy than bargained for, is, well... comforting. But one should dispense with the security blanket as soon as one is able to.

Now, a word on safety. The guide is often invoked as the sane, straight person who will prevent you from harming yourself while you are high. Ooh, great, let's all feel better about this possible eventuality...

"S'alright, lads! Stewie here can take us to de hospital eef things git a bit barmy!"

Listen, as far as safety is concerned, well, if you're stupid enough to do anything other than lie down quietly and allow the experience to have you, then you don't deserve to have the experience. If you're keen on running around like an idiot, or watching movies, or listening to music, or showing off your knife-play skills to your friends, or thinking you have vague super-powers, then you definitely don't deserve to have the experience. And if some moron is spiritually corrupt enough to think you do and provides you with the means, then dude, go get a gGoddamned guide so you don't end up sticking salad tongs up your anus in hopes of extracting the magic ruby you've convinced yourself has been lodged up there by intestinal fairies working for the shadow government.

But don't call me to watch yer shenanigans. I'd probably let you do it...

A-n-n-n-d... discuss!


--------------------
* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: the_Landotter]
    #4098776 - 04/26/05 02:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Gnostic Chaoist

"A-n-n-n-d... discuss!"

Need I say more?


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: the_Landotter]
    #4099142 - 04/26/05 03:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

A guide, in Tim Leary's sense, is a rare thing. Leary thought of a guide as a trained, psychologist/shaman. They were, and are a rare bread. Today, I think "Guide" and "Trip-sitter" have almost the same meaning. Leary's idea of a guide is sadly, becoming a thing of the past.

A good guide/trip-sitter does most of their work BEFORE and AFTER a trip. A good guide/trip-sitter can help quell dramatic situations.

Look, you have some good points. Guides are not a requirement... and some people who think they should be a guide, are full of shit.

However, there are times where a guide can help. If a group of n00bs is tripping, they should have a guide.

Why?

Because n00bs are most likely to panic.

There have been many posts in THIS FORUM about a group of n00b trippers; one of them panics, and the others call 911... and the trip ends in the hospital or jail.

This happens TOO OFTEN.

An experienced tripper knows a trip will end. N00bs often panic and end their trips in a hospital. When tripping with a group of n00bs, it may be beneficial to establish yourself as a guide.

This website teaches people to grow mushrooms. If you grow mushrooms, you will likely SHARE mushrooms. It is important that the grower UNDERSTANDS and RESPECTS the power of what they are sharing with their friends.

I have only guided ONE person, in all of my tripping (and I've tripped a lot). This person got stuck upside down, for 3 hours, on a roller coaster, when he was a child. Needless to say, he had an irrational fear of excitement, and I helped guide him on his first trip. I do not regret it... but I haven't guided a trip since... I haven't needed to.

Terrance McKenna, believed Shamans tripped at night, and in private... so he suggests you trip alone in the dark with no sounds around you. No guides required.

A guide is a fairly new idea, but a guide can help, in certain situations. The more people you trip with, the more likely you will need a guide. If ONE person has a bad trip, and there is no guide, EVERYBODY'S trip will be effected.

A tripper doesn't need to guide, but they should be ready to jump in to help their group, at a moment's notice.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinejohnhenry
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: mecreateme]
    #4099205 - 04/26/05 03:55 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well, you told those wannabe guides a thing or 4, geesh


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: the_Landotter]
    #4105240 - 04/28/05 12:45 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What ann shulgin refers to as "The Observer" should be the only guide you need. however, it's nice to have someone knowing where you are and what you are on, just incase the observer is absent while you are deciding you can fly with your new found powers :smile:


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: the_Landotter]
    #4105314 - 04/28/05 01:05 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

mmm, i personally find other people a nuissance when I'm tripping, especially when they know I'm tripping ("hey dood, i'm gonna trip you out by waving my hands in front of your face and try to fuxor you up! oooo oooo ooo")

but i disagree with you about tripping to music. i find it can be helpful and enjoyable. i also like walks around the city. lieing down is the not the only way to get deep into your trip (well, after a certain point, maybe, but that's not the only purpose of a trip anyways)


--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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Offlineefrog
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: entiformatie]
    #4105840 - 04/28/05 05:03 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I personally too, would not be happy with a non-tripper around me while tripping. They are weird or over annoying or both.

My first trip (yeah, 16 years ago, heh!), I had a really good time. The guy I was with said "Yeah, give her just 2 grams, that will be totally enough, I'll watch her too, though" and he was cool. He told me:
Quote:

You are about to take something that will change your perception completely and maybe even cause you to see things that are only in your head manifest in what you will *believe* is your physical reality. are you sure you want to take it, because once you do, you cannot untake it and it will last for about 6 hours. Are you sure?




I said yes, he said OK, we 5 had a really awesome time. I said at one point: "Hmmm. Should there actually be an orange cat under the table drinking orange juice there like that?" to which he replied: "If you think there is then there should be!" With a big grin :wink:

So, I was totally unafraid and unworried because:
1.) I had past trippers around me who were sane and normal (relatively speaking)
2.) The setting was relaxed and calm and nice
3.) The music (whatever it was) was not stressy or annoying
4.) They didn't let some people who just showed up with alcohol come in and hang out. They were like: no, man sorry. Trippers here. Come back tomorrow.

Finally, the other thing he told me and I will tell you (this guy, btw, was my guy I tried things with, from sex to many drugs): Mushrooms and acid are NOT party drugs. Don't treat them as such and you'll be fine.

So. Respect the Mushroom.

*Bows to the :mushroom2:*

xoxo,
K


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This is a whole new path. You cannot use your old map on this new path and if you try you'll only end up lost in the woods. Get a new map.


Edited by efrog (04/28/05 05:09 AM)


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Invisiblejux
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Registered: 04/06/04
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: the_Landotter]
    #4106669 - 04/28/05 01:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I disagree. When trying certain doses of certain substances a trip sitter can be indispensible. I was trip sitting for a bud trying a rathe large dose of salvia extract. During the trip he ended up leaping off the bed and running into a closet door. He didn't hurt himself, but there is an increased risk of accidental injury with higher doses of psychedelics. Trips sitters aren't such a bad idea when trying larger doses. Also, it's a good idea if this is your first time trying the substance. I've never used a trip sitter myself, but such recklessness is generally ill-advised.


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OfflinePeyoteZen
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: jux]
    #4107862 - 04/28/05 07:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Hmmm. Interesting.
I have to somewhat agree with that.
When i'm voyaging into deep inner-space, the last thing i need is another set of eyes prodding at me.


--------------------


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: PeyoteZen]
    #4107876 - 04/28/05 07:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Hmmm. Interesting.
I have to somewhat agree with that.
When i'm voyaging into deep inner-space, the last thing i need is another set of eyes prodding at me.




Seriously.. especially sober eyes...

but I guess that's why some don't need trip sitters... *shrug*


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4107934 - 04/28/05 07:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Meh, I never thought a trip sitter was supposed to be sober. Where's the fun in that?

A trip sitter is supposed to be a responsible, experienced tripper... and they should take a small to medium dose (so they don't out trip the n00b).

A trip sitter or a guide, can TRIP with their friend. They just need too provide a good set and setting for the n00b, and help out if there is trouble.

Tripping with a sober person watching you would suck.

Trip sitters are more like the buddy system. Think of it as tripping with an experienced friend.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: Rose]
    #4108410 - 04/28/05 09:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Makes sense to me... I tend to trip in small groups, so that's the norm for me.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #4108485 - 04/28/05 09:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think a good rule of thumb is for an experienced tripper to take less, or the same amount as the n00b. No guide should take a heroic dose, unless they REALLY know what they are doing.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineRoseM
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: the_Landotter]
    #4109820 - 04/29/05 04:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I thought I'd review what Leary said, and his idea of a guide is much more casual than you or I may have previously thought.

Taken from: ThePsychedelic Experience by Timothy Leary

Quote:

Tim Leary said,


6. The Psychedelic Guide
For initial sessions, the attitude and behavior of the guide are critical factors. He possesses enormous power to shape the experience. With the cognitive mind suspended, the subject is in a heightened state of suggestibility. The guide can move consciousness with the slightest gesture or reaction.
The key issue here is the guide's ability to turn off his own ego and social games - in particular, to muffle his own power needs and his fears. To be there relaxed, solid, accepting, secure. The Tao wisdom of creative quietism. To sense all and do nothing except to let the subject know your wise presence.

A psychedelic session lasts up to twelve hours and produces moments of intense, intense, INTENSE reactivity. The guide must never be bored, talkative, intellectualizing. He must remain calm during the long periods of swirling mindlessness.

He is the ground control in the airport tower. Always there to receive messages and queries from high-flying aircraft. Always ready to help navigate their course, to help them reach their destination. An airport- tower-operator who imposes his own personality, his own games upon the pilot is unheard of. The pilots have their own flight plan, their own goals, and ground control is there, ever waiting to be of service.

The pilot is reassured to know that an expert who has guided thousands of flights is down there, available for help. But suppose the flier has reason to suspect that ground control is harboring his own motives and might be manipulating the plane toward selfish goals. The bond of security and confidence would crumble.

It goes without saying, then, that the guide should have had considerable experience in psychedelic sessions himself and in guiding others. To administer psychedelics without personal experience is unethical and dangerous.

The greatest problem faced by human beings in general, and the psychedelic guide in particular, is fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of losing control. Fear of trusting the genetic process and your companions. From our own research studies and our investigations into sessions run by others - serious professionals or adventurous bohemians - we have been led to the conclusion that almost every negative LSD reaction has been caused by fear on the part of the guide which has augmented the transient fear of the subject. When the guide acts to protect himself, he communicates his concern to the subject.

The guide must remain passively sensitive and intuitively relaxed for several hours. This is a difficult assignment for most Westerners. For this reason, we have sought ways to assist the guide in maintaining a state of alert quietism in which he is poised with ready flexibility. The most certain way to achieve this state is for the guide to take a low dose of the psychedelic with the subject. Routine procedure is to have one trained person participate in the experience and one staff member present in ground control without psychedelic aid.

The knowledge that one experienced guide is "up" and keeping the subject company, is of inestimable value; intimacy and communication; cosmic companionship; the security of having a trained pilot flying at your wing tip; the scuba diver's security in the presence of an expert comrade in the deep.

It is not recommended that guides take large doses during sessions for new subjects. The less experienced he is, the more likely will the subject impose Second and Third Bardo hallucinations. These intense games affect the experienced guide, who is likely to be in a state of mindless void. The guide is then pulled into the hallucinatory field of the subject, and may have difficulty orienting himself. During the First Bardo there are no familiar fixed landmarks, no place to put your foot, no solid concept upon which to base your thinking. All is flux. Decisive Second Bardo action on the part of the subject can structure the guide's flow if he has taken a heavy dose.

The role of the psychedelic guide is perhaps the most exciting and inspiring role in society. He is literally a liberator, one who provides illumination, one who frees men from their life-long internal bondage. To be present at the moment of awakening, to share the ecstatic revelation when the voyager discovers the wonder and awe of the divine life-process, is for many the most gratifying part to play in the evolutionary drama. The role of the psychedelic guide has a built-in protection against professionalism and didactic oneupmanship. The psychedelic liberation is so powerful that it far outstrips earthly game ambitions. Awe and gratitude - rather than pride - are the rewards of this new profession.


***

It is best if the guru (spiritual teacher), from whom the participant received guiding instructions, is present, but if the guru cannot be present, then another experienced person; or it the latter is also unavailable, then a person whom the participant trusts should be available to read this manual without imposing any of his own games. Thereby the participant will be put in mind of what he had previously heard of the experience and will at once come to recognize the fundamental Light and undoubtedly obtain liberation.

***

If the subject is prepared to diagnose the symptoms of ego loss, he needs no outside help at this point. Not only should the person about to give up his ego be able to diagnose the symptoms as they come, one by one, but he should also be able to recognize the Clear Light without being set face to face with it by another person. If the person fails to recognize and accept the onset of ego loss, he may complain of strange bodily symptoms. This shows that he has not reached a liberated state. Then the guide or friend should explain the symptoms as indicating the onset of ego loss.

Here is a list of commonly reported physical sensations:

Bodily pressure, which the Tibetans call earth-sinking-into-water;
Clammy coldness, followed by feverish heat, which the Tibetans call water-sinking-into-fire;
Body disintegrating or blown to atoms, called fire-sinking-into-air;
Pressure on head and ears, which Americans call rocket-launching-into- space;
Tingling in extremities;
Feelings of body melting or flowing as if wax;
Nausea;
Trembling or shaking, beginning in pelvic regions and spreading up torso.
These physical reactions should be recognized as signs heralding transcendence. Avoid treating them as symptoms of illness, accept them, merge with them, enjoy them.

Mild nausea occurs often with the ingestion of morning-glory seeds or peyote, rarely with mescaline and infrequently with LSD or psilocybin. If the subject experiences stomach messages, they should be hailed as a sign that consciousness is moving around in the body. The symptoms are mental; the mind controls the sensation, and the subject should merge with the sensation, experience it fully, enjoy it and, having enjoyed it, let consciousness flow on to the next phase. It is usually more natural to let consciousness stay in the body - the subject's attention can move from the stomach and concentrate on breathing, heart beat. If this does not free him from nausea, the guide should move the consciousness to external events - music, walking in the garden, etc.

The appearance of physical symptoms of ego-loss, recognized and understood, should result in peaceful attainment of illumination. If ecstatic acceptance does not occur (or when the period of peaceful silence seems to be ending), the relevant sections of the instructions can be spoken in a low tone of voice in the ear. It is often useful to repeat them distinctly, clearly impressing them upon the person so as to prevent his mind from wandering. Another method of guiding the experience with a minimum of activity is to have the instructions previously recorded in the subject's own voice and to flip the tape on at the appropriate moment. The reading will recall to the mind of the voyager the former preparation; it will cause the naked consciousness to be recognized as the "Clear Light of the Beginning;" it will remind the subject of his unity with this state of perfect enlightenment and help him to maintain it.

***

The most important use of this manual is for preparatory reading. Having read the Tibetan Manual, one can immediately recognize symptoms and experiences which might otherwise be terrifying, only because of lack of understanding as to what was happening. Recognition is the key word.
Secondly, this guidebook may be used to avoid paranoid traps or to regain the First Bardo transcendence if it has been lost. If the experience starts with light, peace, mystic unity, understanding, and if it continues along this path, then there is no need to remember this manual of have this manual re- read to you. Like a road map, we consult it only when lost, or when we wish to change course. Usually, however, the ego clings to its old games. There may be momentary discomfort or confusion. If this happens, the others present should not be sympathetic or show alarm. They should be prepared to stay calm and restrain their "helping games." In particular, the "doctor" role should be avoided.

If at any time you find yourself struggling to get back to routine reality, you can (by pre-arrangement) have a more experienced person, a fellow- voyager, or a trusted observer read parts of this manual to you.

***





--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Invisiblekake
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: Rose]
    #4115660 - 04/30/05 07:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I understand the perspectives many of you share.  I see where being around other people while tripping can be the worst for your trip.  I also see how having a friend who can simply share a smile with you while you're tripping can be invaluable.  One part of your post in particular I'd like to discuss:

Quote:

Granted, for the novice (and the novice alone, I should make clear) the comfort of having a sympathetic person on hand when things get perhaps a little more crazy than bargained for, is, well... comforting. But one should dispense with the security blanket as soon as one is able to.




Comforting is an understatement.  If you're talking about ego-loss, having what you call someone that is "Comforting" can mean the difference between a profound and a horrible trip.  I don't think people who might happen to go off the deep end a little bit while tripping shouldn't be doing the substances, they might just need someone to guide them, to maybe get them to try something they didnt think of themselves.  What if you being there was the cause for them opening their hearts and their minds?  This is a beautiful thing, and I can't let you scoff at the true value of such a person being around to influence the tripper in such a way.

Also, I think the abandonment of the trip-sitter is only a natural evolutionary path of the tripper, not something you need to tell someone...few people I think will continue to request having a trip-sitter if they're confident and experienced enough and not doing doses they haven't been able to handle fine before.  But I think any time you dive yourself into a larger dose than you've done before you should have someone trustworthy around. 

I also agree with PeyoteZen, I wouldn't want someone "prodding" me with their eyes either...but this is not even a problem if you would simply address it BEFORE you trip.  Tell the "guide" or "tripsitter" that you get uncomfortable being stared at like you're being babysitted,  or being questioned or anything obtrusive like that while tripping, so kindly ask them to just be around in case anything happens and thats it. If this is a problem, you need to re-evaluate who you choose to be around while tripping.

I think few people are really qualified to be a "guide" on anything higher than a level 3 trip.  You need a thorough understanding of the human psyche (not just your own psyche and what works for IT) and need to keep an open mind of all possibilities at all times.  IF you're just dealing with a trip sitter, I think the trip sitter should be in the next room, close by, or in the same room just keeping quietly busy or whatever, not interfering or distracting or yakking away at you if a true out-of-this-world experience is to be had.  These types of things are totally within your control if you just plan out your trip ahead of time and let the sitter know what you expect from the trip and what you want their role to be...otherwise they're going to decide for you, and even if theyre just trying to help or make your experience more enjoyable, it may end up doing the opposite and its nobody's fault except your own for not preparing properly.

On that note, happy trails y'all. 
:nut: :hippie: :inlove:


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: kake]
    #4115719 - 04/30/05 07:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Actually, I was quoting Tim Leary, but thanks for your thoughts... and thanks for reading his.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Invisiblekake
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: Rose]
    #4117221 - 05/01/05 02:56 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

forgive me Cervantes, I always seem to forget to change the 'Reply to:' drop-down to the correct person, its a feature I haven't gotten used to using at all.

I was actually mostly referring to the_Landotter's post.

:grin:


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: We Doan Need No Steenking Guides! [Re: kake]
    #4117235 - 05/01/05 03:02 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

...

...

... forgiven. :smile:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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