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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Public Education
    #3930237 - 03/17/05 01:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I was thinking about something recently. I was reading yet another one of those "American kids are falling behind in the classroom" articles that detail how our kids are ranked behind thirty or so other industrialized countries when it comes to education.

The U.S. spends billions of dollars on public education. Do you think it is possible that that money would be better spent as bribes to kids to get them to do better? It seems as if the more we dump into public education, the worse our kids do. What if we paid kids for every good score they got on a standardized test? Do you think for the same amount of money spent we would get much higher achieving kids? Does bribing kids to learn sound like a good idea?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930250 - 03/17/05 01:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What's funny is that the amount of money that is spent on education is inversely proportional to performance.

Public schools on average get more per student than private schools and homeschooling. Homeschoolers have the highest grades, then private schools then bringing up the rear is public education.


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Edited by Innvertigo (03/17/05 01:59 PM)


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930260 - 03/17/05 01:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Pay kids to learn, and they will come to expect a monetary reward in exchange for going to school. So rather than learning for the sake of becoming smarter, they will be learning to fill their bank accounts? Maybe there is a way we could fix it so that they get paid one large sum upon completion of the next highest grade. 10% of this goes into their pockets, and 90% goes into an account accessible at age 18, or graduation from highschool, whichever comes first.

Just some ideas...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930292 - 03/17/05 02:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

No that sounds like a horrible idea. Then we'll just have kids cheating however they can so they get money. You'd end up with a country full of excellent cheaters who don't know what the capital of Canada is :smirk:

Plus you will find you end up with a big difference in how much money kids get. Don't forget that some people are just naturally smarter than others, and will thus have a MUCH easier time in school than the other children. Those people will be getting the big bucks despite having to work a LOT less hard than the other children who are getting paid less for their harder work. Too much room for resentment and things like that, plus it just gives children the wrong idea about education.


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OfflineSmokeyMcpot
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Re: Public Education [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3930313 - 03/17/05 02:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

These days life just moves too fast and 18 years of school is just starting to seem way too long and pointless to a lot of kids. They need some instant gratification.

I don't really think it matters WHAT kids are learning for, as long as they're actually learning...

Sweden and Randal's ideas are perfect.... The kids get some cash all the way through school and upon graduation of high school they would all have a good education under their belt and a decent chunk of cash to get their lives started. Too bad all that money would then have to go TO the students and not the board directors, so they probably won't go for it.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Public Education [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3930340 - 03/17/05 02:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


What's funny is that the amount of money that is spent on education is inversely proportional to performance.

Strangely, that seems to be true.

I was just reading an article that tries to blame America's poor public educational system on the quality of the teachers. It insinuates that most public school teachers come from the "lower ranks" of the "lower universities" and this is why kids are not learning. I disagree. You don't need to be a quantam physicist to teach high school algebra. I don't even have a college degree and I understand pretty much every branch of mathematics and I would be capable of teaching all of them.

The solutions in the past have been to dump more and more money into the system. This has gotten us nowhere. Teachers and administrators earn nice paychecks and have massive political power through their union. These people have ample funding, ample salaries, and political power. Even with all of these tools they seem to be incapable of properly educating our children. Something needs to change.

I think the real problem is that most of the kids don't give a shit and a sizeable minority of the teachers don't give a shit. When you have a bunch of people that don't give a shit, nothing is going to get accomplished. I can say this because I went to public schools and I was one of those kids who didn't try or do anything. I and practically all of the other students in my school needed a good kick in the ass which the public educational system never gave us.

Do you think bribing kids would work? What do you think would work to fix public education?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930399 - 03/17/05 02:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The solutions in the past have been to dump more and more money into the system.




A good example is the Detroit Public schools. They were bitching and complaining about the amount of money given to them until they realized that Detroit students receive more money per student than most Michigan schools.

Quote:

The solutions in the past have been to dump more and more money into the system. This has gotten us nowhere. Teachers and administrators earn nice paychecks and have massive political power through their union.




you just mentioned the #1 problem with our school (or at least pretty close to #1). It's the teachers Unions and the administration. Hell, half of the time the teachers don't have a clue of what they're teaching.

Quote:

I think the real problem is that most of the kids don't give a shit and a sizeable minority of the teachers don't give a shit.




I've come to a conclusion that if someone can get a GED and be accepted into the same college that I can get into then there is no motivation to do good in HS. If I would of known that I could still get into college while being a drop out then maybe my HS experience would of been a little different. I say if you don't finish HS you shouldn't be allowed into college, period.

Quote:

Do you think bribing kids would work? What do you think would work to fix public education?




this is probably the dumbest idea i've heard in a while. Money is a short term motivator and just think what you would of done to get that money? I would stress their future being of limited income if they don't get good grades. (that's ofcourse if my previous idea of not allowing drop outs into college were to become reality.)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Public Education [Re: trendal]
    #3930414 - 03/17/05 02:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


You'd end up with a country full of excellent cheaters who don't know what the capital of Canada is

Why would American children be informed about Canada?  It would serve no purpose as that country is of little or no consequence.  :rotfl:

I'm sorry....but for some reason I love playing up the whole "arrogant American who doesn't take Canada seriously" act for laughs.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930424 - 03/17/05 02:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hehe I know, same reason I like playing up the whole "resentful Canadian" bit :wink:

But you get my point, right? Paying children to get good grades will probably result in a lot of children learning how to cheat early on in life, but not really learning anything else.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930425 - 03/17/05 02:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Canada is nothing but Snow, Igloos, seals and eskimos...oh and maple syrup.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Public Education [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3930435 - 03/17/05 02:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Don't forget bacon! :yesnod:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Public Education [Re: trendal]
    #3930438 - 03/17/05 02:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

if by bacon you mean seal meat, then you are correct.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Public Education [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3930444 - 03/17/05 02:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


I think the real problem is that most of the kids don't give a shit and a sizeable minority of the teachers don't give a shit.


I've come to a conclusion that if someone can get a GED and be accepted into the same college that I can get into then there is no motivation to do good in HS.

You know what's weird? I knew someone who was studying for their GED and I looked at the test material. In order to pass it you actually needed to demonstrate proficiency in math, history, science, and reading. The things that you needed to know to pass that test were miles ahead of what 95% of my fellow high school graduates learned at my school. We literally learned nothing. Yes...I am not kidding when I say that the GED was more intensive and required more learning than my high school diploma did.


Do you think bribing kids would work? What do you think would work to fix public education?


this is probably the dumbest idea i've heard in a while. Money is a short term motivator and just think what you would of done to get that money?

Like maybe try at school and learn stuff?


I would stress their future being of limited income if they don't get good grades.

Kids don't think that far into the future. I didn't give a shit that I was getting bad grades.


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InvisibleCalifornia
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930445 - 03/17/05 02:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Public education is really up to the child learning.
Some kids want to learn in school, others want to skip class, get high and get laid.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Public Education [Re: trendal]
    #3930458 - 03/17/05 02:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)


But you get my point, right? Paying children to get good grades will probably result in a lot of children learning how to cheat early on in life, but not really learning anything else.

What if the standardized testing was thorough and full-proof so that cheating was not effective and they actually had to know the material to get a good score?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Public Education [Re: California]
    #3930465 - 03/17/05 02:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oregon said:
Some kids want to learn in school, others want to skip class, get high and get laid.




Well, I had the "getting high" part down perfectly.  The getting laid part didn't come until after graduation for me.  :frown:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930470 - 03/17/05 02:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Then you're still penalizing children for not being as smart as others. Some kids will not do as well on standardized tests as other kids will, and no ammount of teaching will change that. So in effect you would be paying children based on how intelligent they are, not how hard they work (wouldn't bother me personally, as I'm one of the kids who didn't have to work to get good grades...but I can see lots of problems with such a system).


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Public Education [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3930471 - 03/17/05 02:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Like maybe try at school and learn stuff?




I would of cheated my ass off.

Quote:

Kids don't think that far into the future. I didn't give a shit that I was getting bad grades.




I'm not sure about that, I definatly thought about my future and picked my profession to accomodate the lifestyle I wanted. Bribing doesn't get people to learn.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Public Education [Re: trendal]
    #3930480 - 03/17/05 02:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Then you're still penalizing children for not being as smart as others. Some kids will not do as well on standardized tests as other kids will, and no ammount of teaching will change that. So in effect you would be paying children based on how intelligent they are, not how hard they work (wouldn't bother me personally, as I'm one of the kids who didn't have to work to get good grades...but I can see lots of problems with such a system).




Ok smarty-pants, what do you think should be done to make public education work better?


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Public Education [Re: trendal]
    #3930487 - 03/17/05 02:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So if a kid in this system doesn't work hard, he doesn't get paid as much. Same as if a lazy (or stupid) kid who in our current system gets shitty grades. Replace grades with money and its a much better motivator.


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