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OfflineThe_Walrus
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Alturism
    #3919863 - 03/15/05 07:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

What is the true nature of alturism?
Are really generous people doind so to improve their reputation and make it so that other people will be generous to them when they are going through a rough time.
Or are generous people generous for the sake of being generous, with no regard for repayment/reputation.
Or are they doing so to help the common good?
We can find examples of all three. On thanksgiving day, Jennifer Lopez posed for a photo opportunity at a soup kitchen for the poor. She was blatantly doing so to enchance her reputation, I doubt she really gave a toss over the poor people, she probably felt that it was all part of the publicity routine. She would return to her mansion and get back to being a vain bitch.
On the other hand, you get social workers who go through absolute shit, they deal with the most messy, dangerous social problems, such as abusive families, drug addicts etc. They get paid peanuts and are constantly berated by the public after a mistake. Yet if we were to spend one day doing social work, we would realise just how much of a debt society owes to these people.
On the third hand I can use Bill Gates as an example. He is the wealthiest man in the world, and he is going to give 90% of it to helping poor nations develop. His motivations are more complex, I think that he is probably doing it for 'the common good', he probably believes he has so much more wealth than he needs, so its best use would be to help give less advantaged people the opportunity to succeed like he did, and thus help the 'common good'.
So what is the nature of Philantrophy/alturism?

I read this good article in 'New Scientist' that sheds some light on the issue: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18524901.600


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'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Alturism [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3919888 - 03/15/05 08:00 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

all true ism ? :P he he j\k

[French altruisme, probably from Italian altrui, someone else, from Latin alter, other. See al-1 in Indo-European Roots.]


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (03/15/05 08:02 AM)


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Alturism [Re: Gomp]
    #3919901 - 03/15/05 08:11 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

arrrr, heh...
the norski correcting the brit on his spelling of english words...

tousen tak...

~
ok...
is "altruism" = "enlightened self-interest" ?
heh...


(edited for yet another typo, heh...)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (03/15/05 08:25 AM)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Alturism [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3919909 - 03/15/05 08:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You answered this question yourself in your own post.

Some do for themselves.
Some do for good.

There is no specific answer to your question... it applies differently to every individual person.

This is like asking, "Do Christians really believe in God, or are they just faking it?"

Of course some are faking it, and some are really believers.

The nature of altruism is that it can be both black and white, true and false, depending on the situation and the perceptor's perspective.


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Alturism [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3920448 - 03/15/05 12:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Altruism is a self-less good dead for the good of the majority.

Or the dictionary definition:

Common: Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

In Zoology: Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species.

So Bill Gates, and the Social Workers are altruistic, but Jennifer Lopez is not.

I wonder if really you meant to ask whether you can truly be generous if you give for your own ends, to which I would answer no.

However if you want to give me ?10,000,000 to improve your reputation, I'm not gonna refuse!

That's my valise of cracked eggs! :stoned::mushroom2:


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We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Alturism [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3921056 - 03/15/05 03:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

IMO what determines whether or not something really is altruistic is; not the end result of an action, but rather the motivation for the action.

Due to the fact that we have to accept that another person is hopefully being honest about their motivation, it gets tricky determining if an action made really is altruistic.

For instance. Bill Gates may just want to help undeveloped countries, as when they develop, they will ultimately utilize computers, and by helping them now, they are partially in debted to him by way of his previous contribution. It could be a sly maneuver to secure a contract with the countries that he is helping. As once they are on their way, and business is booming... they will most definately require software. (Note: not suggesting this is why he is doing it... but it is a plausible... take a loss now, gain in the future)

Just a thought; anyway, because we can't judge his motivation with 100% certainty... even after the consequence of his actions has developed as a result of his motivation, It's tricky to actually pin down what is indeed altruisitc.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/15/05 03:08 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alturism [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3921659 - 03/15/05 05:45 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"What is the true nature of alturism?"

What is "alturism"? Is it like autism?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=alturism
No entry found for alturism


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Alturism [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3921955 - 03/15/05 06:53 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

True nature of altruism is a flock of apes


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Alturism [Re: slaphappy]
    #3922648 - 03/15/05 09:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

A "flock" of apes, rampantly kill each other, and strive to retain dominance.... As well as the leader constantly fighting and hoarding all the females to himself. (Although the other males get theirs when he isn't looking)

~Altruism?  :rolleyes:


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/15/05 09:53 PM)


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Alturism [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3922723 - 03/15/05 09:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly.


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Alturism [Re: slaphappy]
    #3922844 - 03/15/05 10:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: So... Ghandi among other notable figures are wrapped in some grand conspiracy from you POV I take it?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Alturism [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3923141 - 03/15/05 11:10 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Take it the way you want it, save me the trouble.

:p


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alturism [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3924487 - 03/16/05 07:54 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The nature of altruism is 'disinterested love,' or Compassion. It is a motive that responds to the awareness of a need of another, without thought of payment. Altruism is selfless giving. One may engage in an act of giving: time, effort, money, assistance, etc. at one's own expense. One's own egocentric perspective is thus transcended in an act of altruism. It derives from the Heart Center based motivation, leaving the field of the Solar Plexus Center motivation (which is about power-control-money). As BE HERE NOW put it: 'There is a task to do - you become the task,' yet in doing the task, there is no doer. One perceives the need (like an ion that needs an electron to become a whole atom), the need attracts the Compassion-centered being. There is no inflation of the ego as in the JLo case you noted. She is all Third Chakra as you indicated.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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"greater love hath no man..." [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3924535 - 03/16/05 08:34 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

1 entry found for kenosis.
ke?no?sis    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (k-nss)
n. Christianity
The relinquishment of the form of God by Jesus in becoming man and suffering death.


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[Late Greek kensis, from Greek, an emptying, from kenoun, to empty, from kenos, empty.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ke?notic (-ntk) adj.

~~~
(taken without permission for dictionary.com...)

hey, it's lent :wink: ...
(well, for the western churches --- palm sunday is almost here ---> hey, i know, let's have a parade!)
"o shanna" could be aramaic for "free us!" (so i hear; me no spikka da aramaic, nor even the hebrew (tho i do have some few books with hebrew facing english pages, & a H/E diccionario...)

shalom, markos
shalom, shroomery
shalom, world
shalom...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: "greater love hath no man..." [Re: gnrm23]
    #3926435 - 03/16/05 06:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Right, right, "right on" (Ram Dass). Good one, 'kenosis' - self-emptying. If one empties one's self, what remains? Indeed!




I bet you remember these pages from Toward the One.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Altruism [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3926841 - 03/16/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Because acting altruistically is often detrimental to the direct fitness of the individual acting so, it doesn't seem like such a behavior should ever have evolved. Yet it has. The reason? Usually reciprocity. An individual will act altruistically at a cost to his/her direct fitness because he/she knows he/she will get something in return for his/her altruistic act in the future.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Altruism [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3927719 - 03/16/05 10:16 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

individual
knows
something
return
future


~
well...
i think it may be deeper...
maybe more on a DNA level...
or something peculiar about the human species (or mammals, anyway :wink: ...)
ummm...
somebody rushing into a burning building, or jumping into a raging torrent, to save a total stranger, is prolly not "thinking" about getting this service returned sometime later...
& not every human will do this...
it's one thing to sacrifice self for kith & kin...
but folk do indeed die trying to rescue perfect strangers...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Altruism [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3928134 - 03/16/05 11:32 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That is not altruism. Altruism is a secular term that approximates the spiritual term 'agape.' Agape is selfless love - the form of love spoken of in the Greek New Testament (as contrasted with eros or philias, also Greek words for love).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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