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Fospher
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Altruism
#5628617 - 05/14/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Altruism has a direct relation with our awareness. The more you practice self-denial, the more confident and energetic you get. The bigger the indulgence you turn away, the more you profit.
If someone irritates you to no end (like your boss), instead of getting bitter about it, just laugh and don't let it bother you. In fact, cherish these people, because the more you choose to neglect them, the more you will accredit.
I feel this comes into play with overcoming addictions as well. Addictions don't have to be chemical dependencies, it can be anything from opening your fridge every 5 minutes involuntarily and just eating something to lurking at chat forums. It is simply something you cannot stop doing. The more of these processes you deny, the more the gain.
Your energy is your awareness. This is the power of your mind. Saying yes to yourself is always an indulgence. It will only make you lose energy, and cause you to become indolent, and habitually lazy.
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Icelander
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Re: Altruism [Re: Fospher]
#5628686 - 05/14/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I was doing pretty good with this post until I got to here.Saying yes to yourself is always an indulgence. So before I get jumpy maybe you can explain this statement a little more in depth.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Fospher
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Quote:
Icelander said: Saying yes to yourself is always an indulgence. So before I get jumpy maybe you can explain this statement a little more in depth.
Socrates had this internal voice within him which he called "Daemonius". His voice never told him to do anything constructive, but only told him to deny something. Socrates considered this to be the voice of God. One time Socrates was to aboard a ship, in which all the accomadations were set up, everything was paid for and arranged.
Daemonius told him not to. Through much turmoil, Socrates didn't board the ship, which once sailed ended up sinking.
All that we agree to ourselves is indulgence, a temptation, a sin.
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Icelander
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Re: Altruism [Re: Fospher]
#5628874 - 05/14/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I say yes to myself without indulging often. And other times not. If you apply something to yourself and not to the rest, then you would not be treating yourself as equal to everything else. I don't get why one must never say yes to oneself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EquilibriuM
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I'm not so sure about the "saying yes to yourself" part either... I do enjoy the bulk of it though
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Altruism [Re: Fospher]
#5629487 - 05/14/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sounds more like asceticism than altruism...
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Altruism [Re: Fospher]
#5629894 - 05/14/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Altruism is a bit more extreme, You for instance have collective altruism, (someone who goes to war) and personal altruism, (taking a bullet for someone)
This as well occurs frequently in nature, To protect the hive a bee will sting a intruder, when he stings he will surely perish to protect the hive.
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Silversoul
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In a way, altruism isn't truly altruistic in intention. Often, it's simply putting the group self over the individual self. But that's still self-interest. Just a different kind of self.
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Icelander
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But that's still self-interest.
Right on. I'm amazed at how reluctant people can be to admit to this. Self interest is healthy or not, skillfull or not. But it's always there.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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I agree that self-interest can be healthy if you recognize that "self" means more than just you individually.
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MushmanTheManic
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Asceticism is tyrannizing the worldly self for the benefit of the afterworldly self, "life turned against life."
Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/15/06 11:04 AM)
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Silversoul
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Asceticism is tyrannizing the worldly self for the benefit of the afterworldly self, "life turned against life."
Not necessarily. Often aesceticism is a way to improve one's life in this world. By removing one's attachment to possessions, one attacks the root of suffering.
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dblaney
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Perhaps, but it's very limited in scope and is an extreme. Asceticism may remove many attachments to possessions, but it fosters aversion to possessing things, so in order to really progress, one must neither be attatched nor averse. Much easier to start with the Middle Way, not going towards either extreme of asceticism or indulgence, and thus avoid years or decades of what amounts to self-torture and self-denial.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Fospher
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I can't give you an answer for I have nothing to say. However, go on, for I am listening, and am brainstorming an understandement of my own philosophy.
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Fospher
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Re: Altruism [Re: dblaney]
#5632499 - 05/15/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What's the middle way, where do you draw the line for all possible life scenarios?
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...not going towards either extreme of asceticism or indulgence, and thus avoid years or decades of what amounts to self-torture and self-denial.
Ahh, but pain is just another state of mind, and a great teacher. We learn through struggle, not leisure.
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dblaney
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Re: Altruism [Re: Fospher]
#5632536 - 05/15/06 01:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What's the middle way
where do you draw the line for all possible life scenarios?
The only absolute is that there is no absolute.
Ahh, but pain is just another state of mind, and a great teacher.
I don't go out of my way to seek pain, nor do I run from it if it comes.
We learn through struggle, not leisure.
I'd say that we learn through experience. Of course, it's unlearning that is key.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Silversoul
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Re: Altruism [Re: dblaney]
#5632572 - 05/15/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: Perhaps, but it's very limited in scope and is an extreme. Asceticism may remove many attachments to possessions, but it fosters aversion to possessing things, so in order to really progress, one must neither be attatched nor averse. Much easier to start with the Middle Way, not going towards either extreme of asceticism or indulgence, and thus avoid years or decades of what amounts to self-torture and self-denial.
Ya, but what the Buddha called the Middle Way is still extremely aescetic by Western standards.
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dblaney
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, you're right, by the western standard of excess and overindulgence, what is biologically and spiritually appropriate is very ascetic!
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Fospher
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Re: Altruism [Re: dblaney]
#5632585 - 05/15/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: The only absolute is that there is no absolute.
How can your life be based on an axiom that has no shape? How do you determine what's right or not if you have no way to determine which way to go?
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I don't go out of my way to seek pain
I do. I only come out stronger and more stable minded.
Whatever doesn't kill you...
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I'd say that we learn through experience. Of course, it's unlearning that is key.
Unlearning what? That which you've already learned, considering that you do not need your mind to live?
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dblaney
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Re: Altruism [Re: Fospher]
#5632695 - 05/15/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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How can your life be based on an axiom that has no shape? How do you determine what's right or not if you have no way to determine which way to go?
Intuition. "Right" and "wrong" are subjective and relative moral terms. They're only use is in controlling and manipulating people and events in order to suit your own small and illusionary will. For instance, I may say that what's "right" is what benefits everyone the most. For me that may mean not to kill anyone. For someone else, such as Hitler, that may mean to exterminate an entire race that one perceives as somehow threatening. Right and wrong are concepts, and concepts are not reality. Find your true nature, then whatever you do in any situation cannot be wrong.
I do. I only come out stronger and more stable minded.
Whatever doesn't kill you...
Are you a masochist? Life is like water, and the nature of water is to wave. Pleasure is like the crest of a wave, and pain like the trough. If you get attached to the trough, then you'll be missing out on the crest, and vice-versa. In fact, you cannot have one without the other. So why ignore either one? Simply realize your identity with the entire body of water.
Unlearning what?
Concepts: every concept, since a concept does nothing but give the illusion of separateness from reality.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Fospher
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Re: Altruism [Re: dblaney]
#5632870 - 05/15/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: Intuition. "Right" and "wrong" are subjective and relative moral terms. They're only use is in controlling and manipulating people and events in order to suit your own small and illusionary will ... Right and wrong are concepts, and concepts are not reality. Find your true nature, then whatever you do in any situation cannot be wrong.
What do you mean "find you true nature"? And once we have attained this state of mind everything we do is right, hence we cannot be wrong? By whose standards?
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Are you a masochist? Life is like water, and the nature of water is to wave. Pleasure is like the crest of a wave, and pain like the trough. If you get attached to the trough, then you'll be missing out on the crest, and vice-versa. In fact, you cannot have one without the other. So why ignore either one? Simply realize your identity with the entire body of water.
The trough is the crest. Pain can be orgasmic. Living in leisure will only make you rot, while living in struggle of the progression of the mind will lead to impeccability. Stay in the crest long enough and realize that you've already have slid down in the trough.
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Unlearning what?
Concepts: every concept, since a concept does nothing but give the illusion of separateness from reality.
That's a concept as well. 
If you follow an arbitary doctrine, determining your actions at whim, who is to say you've made the right decision? Why should you feel that you're going the right way instead of think and pull out the map and find out?
Or will you say that the map isn't always right? It may not be, but it's be best thing you got. It's better to sail to India while finding the American coast than setting no destination with a map of unknown landmarks. Following an irrational mindset with a realistic scenario will only lead you to your demise.
Reality is rationality, and your mind is your roadmap. The only exception is the metaphysical where those rules, like quarks in Quantum Mechanics, no longer exist.
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dblaney
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Re: Altruism [Re: Fospher]
#5632956 - 05/15/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What do you mean "find you true nature"? And once we have attained this state of mind everything we do is right, hence we cannot be wrong? By whose standards?
I mean just that: find your true nature, your true mind, Buddha-nature. There is no way to express it conceptually except in the negative.
You don't attain this state of mind. You already are Buddha-nature, you just don't realize it. In order to realize it, all you have to do is cease to identify with the individual self, the small mind. It is just a part in the whole, and there is no difference between part and whole; subject/object; etc. Reality is nondual, and you say that reality is rational, so then it would be irrational to be dualistic.
Once "you" "attain" the big mind, then "you" are no longer acting. You simply are, and action becomes wu-wei or non-action.
That's a concept as well.
Yes, in order to communicate the nonconceptual, one must use concepts.
your mind is your roadmap
The roadmap is symbolic of reality. It is not real in itself: you cannot drive to a point on a piece of paper. Your mind is a reflection of the moon. You can clearly reflect the moon only once the waves of conceptions have been dropped.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushmanTheManic
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In general, I define an ascetic as a person who has renounced all 'worldly' values. They can often be found starving themselves, practicing self-flagellation, or destroying themselves in some other way. As Nietzsche elegantly puts it: "...the ascetic ideal: this hate of the human, and even more of the animal, and more still of the material, this horror of the senses, of reason itself, this fear of happiness and beauty, this desire to get right away from all illusion, change, growth, death, wishing and even desiring—all this means—let us have the courage to grasp it—a will for Nothingness, a will opposed to life, a repudiation of the most fundamental conditions of life..."
I do not think "removing one's attachment to possessions" is a form of asceticism, based on my definition. My knowledge of Zen and Mahayana Buddhism is admittedly limited, but from what I have read, it seems like a life-affirming philosophy. It appears to be concerned with correctly representing reality, escaping the grasping of maya and rupa, not practicing blatant self-denial. "...bodhi and klesa are of one and the same substance while they vary in names."
Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/15/06 03:57 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
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We learn through struggle, not leisure.
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: For me, seeking for happiness, ironically, has always resulted in depression. Happiness is a teasing woman. Ignore her until she's deprived of attention and she will suddenly appear by your side. I derive most of my happiness from: Doing things, working towards goals, feeling worthwhile, struggling against challenges, etc. All of these actions are packaged with suffering and failures, but I do not categorize them as being wrong or unjust. Striving can be a joyful experience in itself, regardless of eventual failure. And without suffering, the feeling of happiness would become stale and unpalatable.
I enjoy climbing! Even if that means climbing out of a valley. The world's first Ascentic!
"It's fun to learn, cus knowledge is power!" -- Some children's TV-show slogan
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