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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Altruism [Re: Silversoul]
    #9766178 - 02/09/09 02:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
So what?  That's still group interest rather than self-interest.




Because of course, satisfying one of your deepest beliefs and concerns (such as giving your life to save someone else's) is anything but self-interest, right? :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766189 - 02/09/09 02:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
So what?  That's still group interest rather than self-interest.




Because of course, satisfying one of your deepest beliefs and concerns (such as giving your life to save someone else's) is anything but self-interest, right? :lol:



Are you saying that one's beliefs are identical to the individual?  Furthermore, are you saying that animals have beliefs?

As for concerns, isn't the definition of altruism an unselfish concern for others?


--------------------

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766190 - 02/09/09 02:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
So what?  That's still group interest rather than self-interest.




Because of course, satisfying one of your deepest beliefs and concerns (such as giving your life to save someone else's) is anything but self-interest, right? :lol:




Self-interest is good, as long as your self-interest is in harmony with what is best for the whole.

The problem is when your self-interest is in disharmony with what is best for the whole.


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Altruism [Re: Silversoul]
    #9766259 - 02/09/09 02:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Are you saying that one's beliefs are identical to the individual?




No.

Quote:

Furthermore, are you saying that animals have beliefs?




In the same measure they are able to decide they they want to give their lives to save the others, otherwise their action of doing so is nothing more but a random act.

Quote:

As for concerns, isn't the definition of altruism an unselfish concern for others?




A concern is being satisfied when they know that their action will result in saving those for whom they hold the concern.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766324 - 02/09/09 02:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
A concern is being satisfied when they know that their action will result in saving those for whom they hold the concern.



So, if a concern for others is satisfied, then it's no longer altruism?  You're playing semantic games and moving goalposts.


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766428 - 02/09/09 03:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How am I doing anything of what you said?
I can understand that you don't agree with my views, but frankly, when you don't know what to say anymore, you start saying things like that.
Why didn't you address the rest of my post?
And yes, just to answer your question, if a concern is being satisfied then it means that the act wasn't selfish. Hell, if the concern wasn't there in the first place, the person or animal would have never died for the others.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Altruism [Re: Zanthius]
    #9766450 - 02/09/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Self-interest is good, as long as your self-interest is in harmony with what is best for the whole.





And what specifically is best for the whole?

Quote:

The problem is when your self-interest is in disharmony with what is best for the whole.




What problem and for whom? It is only a problem for those who didn't get any advantage out of someone else's self interest, but one doesn't HAVE to think about the benefit of others. In fact, we only really carry our own responsibility. Anything more than that is purely preferential and at the decision or ability (for cases in which one is mentally unable to see a solution in which he/she and some others will benefit).


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766505 - 02/09/09 03:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How am I doing anything of what you said?



You're torturing the meaning of "self-interest" to mean whatever will support your point.  Self-interest means something in the interest of one's self, not one's beliefs.

Quote:

I can understand that you don't agree with my views, but frankly, when you don't know what to say anymore, you start saying things like that.



I start saying things like that when you're not making sense.

Quote:

Why didn't you address the rest of my post?



Because it's irrelevant.

Quote:

And yes, just to answer your question, if a concern is being satisfied then it means that the act wasn't selfish. Hell, if the concern wasn't there in the first place, the person or animal would have never died for the others.



So then we have explained away selfishness as meaningless.  Any action which is not coerced is an act of volition, and therefore selfish according to your strange view.  Thus, unselfishness would mean being coerced into acting, since otherwise one would have to have an internal motivation.


--------------------

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766516 - 02/09/09 03:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what specifically is best for the whole?





- That people don't pollute their environment.

- That people tell the truth to each other.

- That people don't steal from each other.

- That people give love to each other.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
What problem and for whom?




These things are a problem for the whole:

- That people pollute their environment.

- That people tell lies to each other.

- That people steal from each other.

- That people give hate to each other.


--------------------

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InvisibleKukaracha
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Re: Altruism [Re: Zanthius]
    #9766633 - 02/09/09 03:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I would rather refer to Kant's categorical imperative, which is a bit more precise. It does place humans above other beings, though.

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Altruism [Re: Silversoul]
    #9766735 - 02/09/09 04:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How am I doing anything of what you said?



You're torturing the meaning of "self-interest" to mean whatever will support your point.  Self-interest means something in the interest of one's self, not one's beliefs.




One's beliefs are in one's self interest. I brought this exact situation up on page one with the old man and the child.

Quote:

Quote:

I can understand that you don't agree with my views, but frankly, when you don't know what to say anymore, you start saying things like that.



I start saying things like that when you're not making sense.




MushroomTrip has made more sense in this thread than anyone else. :shrug:


Quote:

Furthermore, are you saying that animals have beliefs?




This wasn't said, so I'm not sure why you've jumped to this conclusion. But on the basis that we are animals and we believe things I would be pretty certain we do.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (02/09/09 04:09 PM)

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Altruism [Re: Bernackums]
    #9766740 - 02/09/09 04:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I thought I had done atleast a decent job pointing out where discussions on altruism always spiral into a semantical arguement, and I outlined the differences of considering or not considering emotional rewards (which are consequencial of belief) in the equation with the example of the old man and the child. Why have I been ignored to find the same things being argued over a few pages later?


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (02/09/09 04:09 PM)

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Altruism [Re: Zanthius]
    #9766748 - 02/09/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what specifically is best for the whole?





- That people don't pollute their environment.

- That people tell the truth to each other.

- That people don't steal from each other.

- That people give love to each other.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
What problem and for whom?




These things are a problem for the whole:

- That people pollute their environment.

- That people tell lies to each other.

- That people steal from each other.

- That people give hate to each other.




We could have a four page thread about this post alone. :seeya:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Altruism [Re: Bernackums]
    #9766770 - 02/09/09 04:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
One's beliefs are in one's self interest. I brought this exact situation up on page one with the old man and the child.



That doesn't make sense.  This would mean that the same act could be selfish or selfless depending on a fickle change of mind over what I believe.  This would also make it impossible for one to be mistaken about what is in one's self-interest, because if you believe something is in your self-interest, then it is.  Thus, investing in Bernie Madoff's ponzi scheme would be in one's self-interest because you believe it to be, even though it clearly is not.

Quote:

MushroomTrip has made more sense in this thread than anyone else. :shrug:



No she hasn't.  Nor have you.  You guys rely on too vague a definition of selfishness and self-interest.


--------------------

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766783 - 02/09/09 04:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"There's absolutely no evidence that shows there are any altruistic persons out there.
Unless you are willing to show any evidence that sustains your view, this discussion is going nowhere and we're just going to agree or disagree."


What sort of evidence would you accept? Altruism isn't some sort of scientific theory, it is a potential human quality, like selfishness or immaturity is. I can give you some examples of people that I think may have been altruistic in at least some point in their lives, but there is not going to be some sort of scientific evidence that will prove altruism to be true; it isn't necessary.


"Give me one example where one individual can do something with absolutely no though or feeling as a result of it."

Helping others for the mere sake of helping them. Could you not think of that example on your own?


"No, but I do think that this need can exacerbate to such a degree that it becomes ridiculous and hurtful for the individual."

This sentence is grammatically unsound. Do you mean to say, "...this need can be exacerbated to such a degree...", or, "...this need can exacerbate the individual to such a degree that it becomes ridiculous and hurtful."


"If we know how to intelligently (i.e. in a way that fits our best interests and is less harmful for the self and those around us) satisfy those needs and
Quote:

understand


them, then these needs won't have the chance to become an obsession that clouds our judgment."

Agreed. But technically, an altruistic person doesn't have those needs, therefore, it would not be possible for it to become an obsession, nor would their judgment be able to be clouded by them.


"In my opinion, when one believes that there's someone else who's willing to sacrifice for them without getting any benefit at all, it means that they are engaging themselves in delusional thinking, since there's nobody that fits the description."

Those are some pretty harsh words. You actually believe that there aren't people out there who do good for the mere sake of helping others?


"The same thing goes for someone deluding themselves into thinking that they are helping someone without getting absolutely nothing in return. The potential of developing some sort of Messianic Complex or victim-like mentality is very big, for people holding such beliefs."

A "Messianic Complex" exists only within the realm of psychology, a science. Today, religion and science seem to be on opposite sides of the same scale (e.g., the search for truth). People who are truly altruistic do so with a spiritual intent, not a psychological one. I agree that developing some sort of victim-like mentality is likely, but for those who can't handle being truly altruistic, that just shows that altruism is truly not for them.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Altruism [Re: Silversoul]
    #9766806 - 02/09/09 04:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip has made more sense in this thread than anyone else. :shrug:




She has most definitely not made more sense than anyone else, and she brings with herself an unnecessary attitude into this thread.

She often makes grammatical errors, and assumes that everyone knows what she's speaking about while refusing to specifically explain her views.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Altruism [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9766838 - 02/09/09 04:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
I want to share something with you, but it's a bit off topic.

I was reading about in India how there was a struggle to get salt iodized. People who live inland and away from sea food (which is where most of our iodine would naturally come from) can develop problems with the thyroid due to lack of iodine, causing a whole host of physical problems which are quite serious.

Yet adding iodine to salt is such an inexpensive thing... it works out to 2 or 3 cents extra per person per year of salt consumption.

And yet the manufacturers in India, knowing this, resisted it. Because it added a small amount of cost to their salt. Even though it would alleviate an immense amount of suffering, and even though if everyone did it there would be an even playing field since no one would be able to sell their salt without iodine added.

Now my own personal feeling is there is nothing wrong about what the salt manufacturers did or the way they behaved. That is normal human behavior and to expect otherwise would be unrealistic.

It was only after a costly advertising campaign by private individuals and the government that a demand for iodized salt was created. This meant that salt manufacturers who added iodine could charge a bit more money and increase their profits, so very quickly almost all of them did it.




You're positing that selfish behavior is inherent to a mature human being?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Altruism [Re: Poid]
    #9766867 - 02/09/09 04:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mushroom Trip said:
"I am well aware of the fact that social status can influence one's beliefs, but this doesn't mean that a set of beliefs corresponds to a certain social position, and that we're destined to follow those beliefs as long as we belong to a particular social status."




less than an hour later:

   
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
    How does the social status or personal belongings influence one's beliefs in altruism?






:shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Altruism [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9766888 - 02/09/09 04:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Kukaracha said:
I tend to agree with Nietzsche but I don't think there is a way to prove that altruism doesn't exist.




Well, altruism in animals is a proven fact. Many species have members that will let themselves die, if it increases the likelihood for their group to survive. Bees and ants are nice examples. Humans dieing for their countries in wars is another example of altruism.




In order to make this altruism in other animals (because we're animals too, you know :smirk:) seem credible, you will first have to come with some solid evidence that they don't get any emotional reward for their acts. :sorry:





No, first you will have to show us some solid scientific evidence that shows proves that animals even experience emotions at all.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineBernackums
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Re: Altruism [Re: Poid]
    #9766922 - 02/09/09 04:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

and she brings with herself an unnecessary attitude into this thread.

*blink* What? She started the thread, and hasn't had any unnecessary attitude as far as I can see. Personally I find you to be rather difficult to talk to. I've now skimmed over your conversation with MushroomTrip, but I hadn't read it because by your second post you were questioning more about the poster than about the topic of conversation. This is infuriating when we're trying to have a conversation. Because of which, I found, the quality of conversation degraded rapidly from page two.

This is not meant to be insulting, but I cannot let MushroomTrip be accused of all this when she has made sense from the very beginning. :shrug: I love you.

Now then, altruism?


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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