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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: Catalysis]
    #3679402 -

isn't it hypocritical a smoker is working for a health care company anyway?


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We are not human beings going through a temporary spiritual experience.

We are spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience.


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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: BrAiN]
    #3679415 -

BlackSabbath: You being a flying projectile through your windshield isn't what makes you a burden on others. What are the chances that you are going to hit someone else with your flying body? where is your data to support this insane allegation.

The reason there are seatbelt laws and by not using your seatbelt you risk being a burden is because is A: a seatbelt keeps you in your seat, if you are hit but still travelling, you will still be at the controls of the car and may be able to help avoid further damage. B: Seatbelts reduce injury, hence emergency medical costs, especially for people who cannot afford health insurance, which then burdens the tax payers.

Thats what that is about.

now to the original topic. If the government is going to legally allow smoking cigarettes etc. etc., and endorse personal freedom.. then there is a huge problem with allowing a company to fire people based on their personal habits. To allow companies free reign to fire people for smoking cigarettes is a slippery slope to say the least.

I know you spend most of your time with your mouth rapped around the cock of the conservative agenda Black Sabbath.. but come on.. conservatives are supposed to be pro-personal freedom. Liberty! Justice! Fairness and Balance! :p

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: StonedShroom]
    #3679418 -

True... isn't it also hypocritcal for a HEALTH company to tell their employee sthat they're fired so their kids can't afford HEALTH CARE themselves anymore? Being unemployed sure as hell isn't healthy.

Like I said.. I'm not arguing whether or not this should be allowed. I don't care... and I hate the gov't for regulating shit like this... I'm just saying that it's IRRESPONSIBLE for a company to do this, without giving their employees a chance to 'rehabilitate' themselves.

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: BrAiN]
    #3679423 -

Actually... this is pretty fair now that I think about it..

I missed the part of that article that said

"The company offered them help to kick the habit."

Fuck it... nevermind.. the company did the right thing.

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679426 -

Brain.. the government in a Democracy (demos = greek for "the many commons") IS the "public" you speak of. Duh.

Saying let the people decide means that you let the government regulate it. Not you let the CEO's screw more people over. :p

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679430 -

vivid said:
now to the original topic. If the government is going to legally allow smoking cigarettes etc. etc., and endorse personal freedom.. then there is a huge problem with allowing a company to fire people based on their personal habits. To allow companies free reign to fire people for smoking cigarettes is a slippery slope to say the least.

I know you spend most of your time with your mouth rapped around the cock of the conservative agenda Black Sabbath.. but come on.. conservatives are supposed to be pro-personal freedom. Liberty! Justice! Fairness and Balance! :p


Vivid.. you're response was a little vague. I'm kind of curious as to where you stand on this. Do you think the company is in the wrong? Just curious.... I think both sides have valid arguments... but you do have to admit... after reading the article over... the company did give people a chance to change their habits and offer a program to help...

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679443 -

Quote:
vivid said:
Brain.. the government in a Democracy (demos = greek for "the many commons") IS the "public" you speak of. Duh.

Saying let the people decide means that you let the government regulate it. Not you let the CEO's screw more people over. :p



Wow vivid you post fast.... I posted that last bit in response to your previous post

We really don't live in a democracy.. we live in a republic... a representative democracy.. there's a differece... We elect officials in hopes of them making the right decisions...

Perfect example... The guy who is now the head of homeland security... was one of the prominent figures in the whitewater case trying to prosecute Bill and Hillary.

the senate voted him in 99-1... guess who the one senator was that rejected him...

yup.. Hillary Clinton.. now do you think she really sat down and thought about what her people really wanted... or do you think she voted based upon her own personal agenda?

The people didn't vote in this matter... someone with a personal vendetta voted...

I think we're a little ways from a democracy. I mean hell... look at the last election... more people voted for gore than bush... yet bush won... is that how a true democracy works? In a perfect america... the officals we elect should vote the way the majority of their electors want them to.. that's the way a republic is supposed to work... but the people we vote in .. they're humans... and subject to their own personal ideas, bribes, vendettas, etc...

I just think that the 'democracy' needs to be broken down on a more local level... like we talked about in the chat room... why should people in new york be making decisions for people in california... they don't know the californian's geography... their agriculture.. their way of life.. and visa versa... I think grey-area decisions like these, that really only affect the lives of the local people, should be voted on by the local people/gov't and not by an official 3000 miles away that only gets 'briefed' on the situation.

Edited by BrAiN (01/25/05 07:27 PM)

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: BrAiN]
    #3679476 -

Direct democracy doesn't work in such a huge system. I'm quite aware of the difference between a republic and the democracy in Athens.. but a republic is still a form of Democracy, and its the closest we're going to get without even more beurocratic delays.

That being said.. I think the company is fucked up. I dont think they should fire people for something that is purely legal. If they were smoking crack, well thats a different story. Sure they have a point that it will cost them in health care costs and they gave them a chance to "quit"... but what gives an employer that authority over his employee?
Should an employer be able to say "you have to change your diet because you are risking hearty disease"? I would assume not.
Should they be able to say "you will be fired if you dont start exercising because you are becoming obese and we dont want to pay for the benefits that we provide"? I think that would be a hard argument to support

Business isn't concerned with the health of employees beyond how much cost that means to them. If they offer health care as one of the benefits of the job, then they should be obligated to provide health care, not fire people because they may or may not in the future (most likely after retirement.. which would probably mean no cost to the company with the relaxation of pensions and pension law) have serious complications.

If the government is going to say its ok to smoke, let people smoke. I trust the government very little, but i trust companies even less. At least companies are transparent with their manipulation and greed though.

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679487 -

vivid said:
Brain.. the government in a Democracy (demos = greek for "the many commons") IS the "public" you speak of. Duh.



Thank you for that refresher in fourth grade social studies.

Quote:
Saying let the people decide means that you let the government regulate it. Not you let the CEO's screw more people over. :p


It's a privately owned company. The government should have no jurisdiction over the company's drug policy.... after all, tobacco (nicotine) is a drug.

Smokers were given a chance to quit. The choice was up to the smokers- they could either a) stop smoking and keep their job or b) continue to smoke and fail (or refuse) a drug test.

If anyone lost their job it was a choice they made knowing the consequences. It's not like they just wrote out pink slips out of the blue one day to everyone taking a smoke break.


--------------------
We are not human beings going through a temporary spiritual experience.

We are spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience.


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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679506 -

Don't get me wrong, vivid. I agree with you on a lot of points. I just think that corporations should have some freedom too as well as the masses of america. I think it's kinda fucked up too... but I just think they should have that right.

Your quote: "Direct democracy doesn't work in such a huge system. "

That's why I think we need a smaller system. You know how I feel about the gov't, vivid, my butha man :wink:... I just think the scope of the federal gov't is getting to large to be effective for a lot of things. The gov't works sort of like a corporation itself. You need managers that are on lower levels to really understand the needs and the processes of the low level workers.

But anyways... I'm trying not to turn this post into a thread about libertarianism vs federalism :wink:

I'm just saying though.. why should corporations be forced to hire people they don't want to hire? We should at least be able to work out a comprimise...

Hell... If I let a friend stay in my house to get on his own two feet.. and I find out he's shooting heroin. Even though it doesn't affect me.... I should have the right to kick him out. If I did... I would be an asshole for being inconsiderate and maybe making his problem worse... but I should have the right.

If we're going to start regulating everything a company does based on whether or not it's the nice thing to do or not... lets start passing more and more laws telling people they're not allowed to be assholes anymore. Or.. Lets start passing laws saying that companies can't consider a person's community service when hiring them... since we can't judge people on their lifestyles.

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679515 -

I would see absolutely no problem in a company enforcing a policy that requires employees work out to stay fit- as long as the company paid for the gym membership or had a gym on location free to employees. Of course, there will be exceptions to those who are disabled and can't work out- considering disabled people are a risk the company takes anyway.

Same thing here- the company was willing to pay to help employees quit.


--------------------
We are not human beings going through a temporary spiritual experience.

We are spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience.


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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: StonedShroom]
    #3679528 -

You just have to remember... Having a job at a place is a privilage, not a right.

There's a difference being pulling an enron and doing dishonest shit to fuck over employees and the public...

but it's something totally different to say... Ok... we think the best thing for this company is to say... non smokers can only work here. It's not like saying black people can't work here or jews can't work here...

You're basing someone's employment on a decision.. on something they can change... and they just have to decide which is more important to them... cigarettes... or staying with this company. It would be the proper thing to do to give the employee some leeway time to find a new job if they chose cigarettes.

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: StonedShroom]
    #3679544 -

SToned Shroom: You apparently need the refreshment in 4th grade social studies, maybe repeat the grade all together.

You still failed to address my arguments. Good job at being a failure at debate.

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679570 -

can't we all just get along and try to stick to the subject here

the more we insult one another and resort to telling each other they're retards... the less weight your won argument holds

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679572 -


Brain: I understand your point, that people shouldn't expect to have a job as a "right". But i think the "right" of people to smoke a legal product should stand for something.

I just dont agree with you that a company should be able to say "this is legal personal choice of our employees, but we're going to fire them because it hurts our bottom line".

I dont like government interference with my life, but I resent some corporation trying to delegate authority in my choices even less because it feels less legitimate.

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679600 -

and maybe thats where i dont understand this whole thing the most.

You support the sponsoring of corporate interference in the lives of people, but not the interference of the government. At least the government is "supposed" to have an altruistic modus operandi.. where a corporation is completely selfish. :\

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: vivid]
    #3679773 -

vivid said:
Brain: I understand your point, that people shouldn't expect to have a job as a "right". But i think the "right" of people to smoke a legal product should stand for something.



Again... A company saying that if you smoke.. you can't work here isn't the company saying you can't smoke... they're saying.. if you smoke you can't work here....

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: BrAiN]
    #3679817 -

"You support the sponsoring of corporate interference in the lives of people, but not the interference of the government."

Yea.. pretty much. I hate to say it. With the gov't you CAN or CANT do something... and if you don't adhere to these rules then you don't even belong in society... you belong in jail for 10-20 years

with corporations...  there hundreds of thousands.. if you don't like the way one works... the worst thing that happens is that you get fired... you can always work for another. You have options... choices... You seem to have the position that every large corporation is the devil. That's not the case.

Again... I don't support free reign.. Like I said... you can't just dump your toxic waste anywhere...  But I don't think companies should be forced to do something for the common good and more than you should make laws to FORCE people to be nice to one another.

Again... small groups of people that arent involved in either the company or the gov't CAN make a difference. The corporations may have too much power, you think, but also... public opinion and the media is a powerful tool. If you think a company is being unfair..  strike... go to the news papers.. protest... hell.. start a rumor about syringes and shards of glass being put in the company's products... :wink:

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: BrAiN]
    #3679896 -

When does a company's right conflict with an individual's right?

Should a company be allowed to fire everyone who votes Republican/Democratic/Libertarian/Green ..? Should a company be allowed to fire people who oppose the war in Iraq? Should a company be allowed to fire all black people?

When does the government have a responsibility to step in and regulate business?

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Re: Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke [Re: newuser1492]
    #3679942 -

cb9fl said:
Should a company be allowed to fire everyone who votes Republican/Democratic/Libertarian/Green ..? Should a company be allowed to fire people who oppose the war in Iraq? Should a company be allowed to fire all black people?


If there's nothing in the contract forbidding them from doing so, I think it's fair game. Many companies have a non-discrimination policy(which helps attract potential employees), and therefore they could not get away with such practices.

Quote:
When does the government have a responsibility to step in and regulate business?


When the company violates its contractual agreement with its employees.

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