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Offlinest0nedphucker
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What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card?
    #3523629 - 12/20/04 10:10 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

With the Tory leadership backing this it looks like we all be having our biometric ID cards within the next 5 years. I'm quite indifferent to the idea, I don't think they are the massive blow to civil liberties certain groups are making them out to be and after 7 years I have become accustomed to Labour throwing money away.  :smirk:

Supposedly around 40 Conservative MPs and 30 Labour MPs are voting against the proposals or will abstain. Yet, even if you add the Liberal Democrats it still won't be enough to stop the bill being passed. This is assumming everyone behaves themselves and votes as they should.

It's also my understanding that in the unlikely case that neither side wishes to make any ammendments this doesn't even have to go to the vote.  :shocked:

Well at least there's still the House of Lords. You never know they might just delay it long enough that the Lib Dems actually win an election  :tongue:

Quote:

Clarke faces ID cards rebellion

Charles Clarke faces his first big test as home secretary with backbenchers expected to rebel over ID cards.
Up to 30 Labour MPs could oppose the scheme during Monday's debate - but Number 10 says the cards are needed to tackle the threat of terrorism.

Mr Clarke was promoted to the job last week after David Blunkett quit.

Tory leader Michael Howard also faces a possible rebellion after deciding to back identity cards. The Liberal Democrats oppose the plans.

Jail terms

The first cards would be issued in 2008 along with biometric passports.

Mr Blunkett suggested Parliament could decide in 2011 or 2012 whether to make it compulsory for everybody to own, but not to carry, the cards.

It would cost an estimated ?415m each year to run a biometric passport scheme - and another ?85m for ID cards.


Ministers say the scheme would help the fight against terrorism, illegal immigration and organised crime.

Opponents say the project would be expensive and ID cards elsewhere have not prevented attacks like the Madrid rail bombing.

Cost to freedom?

Writing in The Times, Mr Clarke accused some critics of "liberal woolly thinking and spreading false fears" by claiming ID cards would erode civil liberties.

He described the scheme as a "profoundly civil libertarian measure because it promotes the most fundamental civil liberty in our society - which is the right to live free from fear crime and fear".

Civil liberties groups hit back, saying US President George Bush, hardly known as a "woolly liberal", was among those who believed ID cards were too costly to personal freedoms.


Mr Clarke is likely to try to win over sceptics by stressing that officials who secretly accessed information they were not allowed to see would face up to two years in jail.

He is also expected to cut the ?85 cost of the card and passport, for the elderly and those on lower incomes.

Mr Howard last week said his shadow cabinet had reached a "collective view" to back ID cards after holding a "good discussion", but admitted it was "not an easy issue".

He had decided to support the plans as the police said they would help fight terror, crime and illegal immigration.

'Big Brother'

Former shadow attorney general Bill Cash said there was still "very deep" disquiet about the plan among senior Tories.

He said the government was "intensely authoritarian" and was creating "increasingly a Big Brother society".

Labour backbencher Neil Gerard said it was "almost inevitable" people would eventually be forced to carry the cards.

He accused advocates of the scheme of making "bald statements" about its ability to combat terrorism and crime without any evidence to support their claims.

The Liberal Democrats have urged Mr Clarke to "pause" before pushing ahead with the plans.


Lib Dem parliamentary party chairman Matthew Taylor said: "It sounds good but the practise is we will all have to pay a lot of money to have them.

"Every time we change address, we will have to pay again. Every few years we will have to renew them, that will cost a lot of money and yet the whole system won't actually work." 




Any thoughts?

EDIT: To clarify the bill won't actually come into full effect for another 10 years not 5.  :blush:


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


Edited by st0nedphucker (12/20/04 10:37 AM)


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3523644 - 12/20/04 10:22 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If they make it easier for me to get busted for using drugs then they're a bad thing. Apart from that I don't care. Politics is fucked up in this country now though, Labour seem to be doing everything you'd expect the Tories to do, they are definately no longer a left-wing government (or centre-left or whatever they claimed to be). The Tories don't seem to be much more right than Labour these days, apart from on some social issues.

I'm expecting a third term for Labour with a few more votes for the Lib Dems and a significant proportion moving to smaller parties like UKIP and the greens. I can't see how the Tories can win. They are too much like Labour, but lots of Labour voters would never dream of voting Tory, just out of sheer bias.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3523734 - 12/20/04 11:14 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

When the enlightened revolution is in full swing all these things that may seem very orwellian now will suddenly become very helpful and benevolent...ahh i love drinkin at lunchtime!


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3523738 - 12/20/04 11:16 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: You should do it more often.


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3524295 - 12/20/04 03:15 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

ID cards are a waste of time, space and money save in the criminalisation of a nation's populous.

Politics has always been fucked up...and it will remain so indefinitely.

How is it the UK culture can bypass a real 30 year bombing campaign by the IRA with no need for such things, yet now we need them to protect us from invisible terrorists who have never attacked the UK?
And likewise the anti-terrorism laws?

Of myths and mythmakers, there are none worse than the paranoia generators.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3525035 - 12/20/04 07:00 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


You should do it more often




Believe me stoned I really shouldnt!!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: CJay]
    #3525041 - 12/20/04 07:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Cj- dont u think the tools of discontent can become the tools of peace at sometime in the future?!


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Always Smi2le


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3525532 - 12/20/04 10:29 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

can you explain teh cards? im nto 100% on what they are exactly?

we got id, drivers license and so on. non are mandatory except birth certificate which you are free to loose at any time.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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Offlinetheorganicdomino
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: kadakuda]
    #3526686 - 12/21/04 07:16 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I AM NOT A NUMBER, I AM A FREE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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"You've got to get hold of the thread of marching time, pull the fuck thing down, get on the end of it and pang yourself to the infinitude of absolute mind"
Ken Campbell - Furtive Nudist

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced" - Aart van der Leeuw


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: GazzBut]
    #3526981 - 12/21/04 10:22 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Cazzbut - You musta read a lot of Lao Tzu my man :strokebeard:


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: CJay]
    #3527011 - 12/21/04 10:37 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

read all about it

They will stop terrorism because terorists will have 'TERRORIST' emblazened on their cards.

They will stop illegal immigrants because they will be impossible to forge *ahem* just like passports

They will stop all crime, because everything about the criminal will be known and people will be arrested based on social habits and not evidence of crime committed.

They will need to be produced upon demand by the police (state), (one more election will pass and it will become compulsory to carry it at all times - that's the way these things go).

once established they will need to be produced to use credit cards, rail discount cards, to see a doctor, to do pretty much anything.

Spot checks on the street will ensue, there will be heavy penalties for non-compliance

The world will be a perfect, peaceful happy place

Heil Tony!

:twisted:


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Offlineballs
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: CJay]
    #3527652 - 12/21/04 02:26 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

It wont be a card, it will be a number inprinted on your skin, somewhere on the body. The mark of the beast. Who ever doesnt get it will not be able to do anything. Something along those lines.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: CJay]
    #3529617 - 12/22/04 12:25 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

shitty deal. but surely you dont have to carry it on you 24/7...? wouldnt it jsut be a thing like a drivers license? or when you travel and cross borders?

its not one of these sci fi type things where a cop can stop you, for whatever legit reason, and fine you for not carrying this card....?


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: kadakuda]
    #3530434 - 12/22/04 05:06 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)


shitty deal.  but surely you don't have to carry it on you 24/7...?  wouldn't it just be a thing like a drivers license?  or when you travel and cross borders?


It is intended that it will be compulsory to own by 2012 but not carry. You would be able to use it to travel round Europe, but outside Europe you will still need you passport. And no it will not replace the driving license, seems like an expensive exercise to me.

its not one of these sci fi type things where a cop can stop you, for whatever legit reason, and fine you for not carrying this card....?

You won't be required to carry it (well until they change their minds), but my guess is that it is more of a data capture exercise, get every ones biometric measurements on file. Then you could have your cops carrying a indent-o-mad-gig device that can read your features and look them up against a national database, then it would only be necessary for you to carry your eyes/thumbs at all times :smile:


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InvisibleSorted
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: kadakuda]
    #3530435 - 12/22/04 05:07 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Carried 24/7, or if you don't have it on you it has to be produced at the nearest police station within 14 days. And the way it's proposed at the moment I believe police could stop and ask for ID for no reason, which is something even card supporters don't like. And then the fact it'll cost everyone an estimated ?85 ($170).. ?85 if you change address.. ?85 if you lose it.. ?85 every two years to keep it updated. Only 10% of pro-card people thought ?40 was fair let alone ?85.


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InvisibleSorted
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3530440 - 12/22/04 05:12 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:

It is intended that it will be compulsory to own by 2012 but not carry.





Hmms.. there's so much contradictory stuff about cards. An ID card that doesn't have to be carried seems to somewhat defeat the point of having them. Is some illegal immigrant/criminal/alleged terrorist going to take themselves to a police station within 14 days because they didn't have a card on them when stopped by police, or just do a vanishing act.


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: Sorted]
    #3530461 - 12/22/04 05:31 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I know, I don't buy it either. Seems like an excuse for someone to make a lot of money rather than anything sensible, and mark my words its going to cost way more than they are saying now.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: psilomonkey]
    #3530539 - 12/22/04 06:45 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Cut it up if it ever lands on your doorstep - and fuck paying for it.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: CJay]
    #3530568 - 12/22/04 07:23 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

then again...play the game if need be
------------------


- I do wonder why having Nastional Insurance card is not enough

------------------

It's all paving stones to the future...bring on the roadworx!


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: What do you want for Christmas? An ID Card? [Re: CJay]
    #3530843 - 12/22/04 09:38 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

wow that is rather fucked. certainly wouldnt find me paying for it. i get the feeling many people wont, and your taxes will probably go up in the next few years.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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