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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497458 -

Yesterday, I wasn't sure how I felt about Swami's banning. I honestly didn't understand why everyone was making a big deal about it.

But I slept on it and realized that he really wasn't doing any harm there. I've felt that he gets snarky at times, but that's not the same (in my opinion) as belittling someone.

I guess my final view on this is that people could have used the ignore button if he bothered them that much. I mean, that's what it's there for. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't think he deserved a ban. Of course, the mods/admins might have some other evidence that I am not aware of, and in that case I will reevaluate my stance when the time comes.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497461 -

While this website was formed to stop misinformation related to mushrooms, I may have mistakenly believed that it was better than any other website in terms of attitude or whatever. As the Shroomery has gotten bigger, has become much .. worse. I remember when ripper died and Murple left- murple was an asshole to people who were ignorant, but he was one of the most knowledge posters on this website. It was a time when someone left because of poor adminstrative decision- we had decided to spread more information at the cost of devaluing our purpose.

One by one, are we to lose key points of information to keep people happy? I've come to notice that fundamentally stupid people compromise the majority in EVERY large group. But, it's at the shroomery that I've come to see how that correlates relatively with popularity.

I am certain that Swami will not change his posting style- he has no good purpose to. I suggest we concentrate less on expansion issues and more on preserving the quality of the Shroomery.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497469 -

Please trust us. I'm sure nobody on the Staff wants to piss you guys off by censoring details. This is a complicated matter, with a long history. Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

We'd love to give you more detail, and if you are patient, we may just do that...

Let's face it, Swami doesn't troll, he Swami-trolls... 

Swami-trolling is a very subtle, hard to detect, and hard to punish form of trolling.

Swami-Troll: verb: 2004
Definition: To troll subtly over a long period of time until people FUCKIN' SNAP!
"Dude, watch out, you're being Swami-trolled."
"Kevin, let's Swami-troll grandma until she has a stroke."
Swami-trolled, Swami-trolling, Swami-trollery.

Everybody Swami-trolls once in a while... Swami does it all the time.

Most of the time, mods overlook Swami-trolling... but over the course of SEVERAL YEARS, Swami finally made a big enough blip on the radar to be banned... we understand, from your perspective, he has acted this way since he became a Shroomerite. Why on Earth should he be banned now... he's been posting the same way for YEARS? Well, the fact is, we've been asking him to slightly adjust his behavior for YEARS... and he never has. Only NOW, did he get a ban.

Unlike MOST bans, there is no culminating event that constituted Swami's ban. Rather, he was banned so he could discover exactly what we were asking of him.

Swami, also, thumbed his nose at the last STAFF warning he received.

In effect, he Swami-trolled the very mods who were trying to help him avoid banishment. The mods took the bait, because they'd been Swami-trolled ONCE too often... and they banned the hell out of Swami.

You may not like this reasoning, but THAT is your reason.

I'm sorry, details are hard to find... because Swami-trolling is not as SELF CONTAINED as regular trolling... also, some of his actions took place in private.

I hope this helps you all understand the situation better.

I stand behind Swami's ban, but most of you have made VALID points, and there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification from the Staff. You are probably all afraid the SAME thing could happen to you. You shouldn't worry. Swami is the master of Swami-trolling, the rest of us have some work to do to catch up with him... :smirk: Besides, it took YEARS for Swami to be banned for his Swami-trolling.

Please, keep this discussion positive, we are listening... and we have been working on this, behind the scenes, for quite some time. I know, publicly, our actions may seem odd, and detail is scarce, but there is a logic behind our actions, and we do never intend to be SOOOO skimpy on the details.

Thanks,
Cervantes


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/14/04 01:51 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #3497492 -

Amber_Glow said:
What really seems to be at question here is whether you are allowed to question other's beliefs, ideas, explainations, etc. in the S&P forum.  This issue is bigger than just Swami.


Indeed, Swami is simply the embodiment of this.

While Spirituality and Philosophy isn't hardcore debate complete with complex rules, it does have the general theme of presenting ideas and discussing them in a relaxed, open manner. Everyone plays a part in this in their own way, and questioning and analyzing these ideas is crucial.

It seems the problems occur when individuals enter into this with emotional attachments to their ideas, feeling the need to defend agansit them and force them onto others, or when they will not discuss points with others... they often initate personal issues that do not involve the direct discussion and completely derail the topic....

It certainly isn't Swami that flys off the handle and steps over the line. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497529 -

when faced with a problem, many people choose to give it a new name and then it makes the problem easier to solve. Oh well, this is OK, but xxx-this is horrible and must die!!!!

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497556 -

For one thing, one has to question Swami's intentions for doing exactly what you have described as they pertain to spirituality and philosophy. If you take it at face value, not aware of what results from Swami's method of discussion, it certainly would look less than admirable.

There is a considerable list of people in Spirituality and Philosophy who appreciate Swami and the way he posts, as they have learned a lot of things from his doing so. Valuable lessons and distinctions have been formed through this. A recent thread posted by Swami, Summation Of What I Have Learned, reflects some of this, in both his words and the subsequent posts...

Quote:
Most of the time, mods overlook Swami-trolling... but over the course of SEVERAL YEARS, Swami finally made a big enough blip on the radar to be banned...


If such described Swami-trolling is really that subtle, hard-to-detect, and only can result in a ban after many years of accumulation, perhaps it isn't that much of a big deal? If there aren't single, isolated incidents that are deserving of a ban, why take time and energy to let it build up over five years to finally result in a ban?

I'm sorry, but it still seems to me that there is another variable here that has more to do with this than anything else, and that is of personal, emotional residue, going beyond "Swami-trolling" or anything else....

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497570 -

I agree. The idea of subtle behavior cummulatively resulting in a ban is just ridiculous. By that line of reasoning, luvdemshrooms should have been banned long ago.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: vampirism]
    #3497580 -

Hmmm... a minute ago, the problem had no name... now that it has a name... the name's the problem?!?

It's true... you can't please all of the people all of the time.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3497582 -

He was... TWICE. :smirk:

There was just considerably less drama surrounding his bannishment.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497594 -

Cervantes said:
He was... TWICE. :smirk:

There was just considerably less drama surrounding his bannishment.


Does the fact that the reasoning is consistent justify the reasoning itself? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497602 -

I'd like to note just one other point of bias on the part of the mods.

When Shroomism got arrested, a long-lived thread completely off-topic to both Spirituality and Philosophy was not only allowed to stay, but was made sticky when it should have been moved to PAL.

Now, even mentioning the highly-relevant Swami banning instantly creates a locked thread and redirection here where it's quietly out of sight.

And finally, after ~24 hours, we have yet to see a single example of Swami's rule-breaking offences.

Someone sufficiently guilty to be given a FIFTEEN DAY BAN should have done enough 'bad' things to be easily quoted in the act, no?

Edit: It's now been ~72 hours.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (12/16/04 06:00 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497605 -

Cervantes said:
It's true... you can't please all of the people all of the time.


You can always please a small but vocal number of people though, right?  :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497609 -

Just an observation. In astronomy, for example, thats what they do- they find something a little odd and will give it a name, irrespective of what the problem actually IS, but based on what it looks like.

Up until the point that any evidence is presented, alot of people will not be pleased. Your tactics including handling of information match up perfectly with America's during Iraq. It is clear that Swami will be gone for *some* reason involving mods and PMs.

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3497617 -

No, it just sets the record straight for Silversoul, a good guy who... this time, made a pointless point.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: vampirism]
    #3497627 -

Morrowind said:
Up until the point that any evidence is presented, alot of people will not be pleased.  Your tactics including handling of information match up perfectly with America's during Iraq.  It is clear that Swami will be gone for *some* reason involving mods and PMs.


I've often considered plausible parallels to the current status of the American government... somewhat baffling considering the nature of this webiste... of course, that is the way power can be....  :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: vampirism]
    #3497631 -

Let me make this clear, I am just providing you all with the INFORMATION you have been requesting for TWO DAYS.

Please, don't shoot the messenger.

I have no jurisdiction over the S&P forum... but I am privy to the events that led up to Swami's banishment.

"Swami-troll" is my term... not an Administrative policy. It was simply the best way I could think of, to explain what happened... as per... like 40 people's request.

I simply can't say more because I didn't make the decision.

Like I said earlier, be patient, and positive... you may get MORE info... but it is not my place to disclose more than what I have already stated. It is simply, not my forum.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/14/04 02:09 PM)

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497667 -

It is interesting, however, that no demands have been made of luvdemshrooms to change his posting style, as they are doing with Swami. In fact, I've seen pinksharkmark frequently engage in Swami-like behavior. I don't mind it. In fact, that's a large part of what makes PAL interesting, just as Swami made S&P more worthwhile. The fact that some people cannot recognize the difference between attacks on ideas and attacks on individuals is a sad reflection of this community.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: silversoul7]
    #3497707 -

Like I said, we ALL do it occasionally (pinky, me... you)... but Swami does it A LOT... and he has been asked for YEARS to stop...

Perhaps, if Swami hadn't blatantly thumbed his nose at his last Private warning, he'd still be here today... I don't know.

BTW, Swami thumbing his nose at a polite warning, was all a mod needed to ban him.

If a mod asked you to stop doing something, and you practically told 'em to "Shove it." Wouldn't you be risking bannishment? This isn't rocket science.

Don't troll the people with the BAN button.

It rarely works in your favor.

It seems... Swami-trolling a mod who is trying to help you, is the type of thing that bumps a ban from 24 hours to 15 days.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497848 -

Please trust us. Much of the HARD evidence exists only in PRIVATE.

See, that is that the sort of thing that actually inspires distrust. It seems like ALL of the evidence is in private, and that looks very shady.

Why doesn't someone just admit, "Hey, we just never liked the guy. We got our feelings hurt and we hit the ban switch. He pushed the envelope but never crossed the line, and we felt had. When we realized we had created a shit storm and were being asked tough questions, we were caught off guard. But we had to save face and stick with our initial call."

To me, that would be a lot more honest than us being asked to trust something that went on in a smoky backroom somewhere. Us peons don't know about that, so all we're left with is guesswork as to why this occured.

Also two questions: 1) Exactly how many times was Swami warned (and when), specifically what was he warned about, and what form did those warnings take (pms, public, rates, etc.)?

2) Under what conditions is it permissable for mods/admins to read the personal email of another member?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Rose]
    #3497853 -

Surely this is a question of our little community becoming more like the larger community we all exist in which many of us despise for its restrictions and laws? Although I think Swami is just as rigid in his beliefs as those he rails against I still think he is of alot more value to the S&P forum there posting than banned for "subtly annoying people over a period of years."

Out of interest how many times has Swami reported the many, many flames that are directed at him when people take his comments personally or just over react and then actually resort to common abuse, something I have never seen Swami do?

I honestly believe that at heart Swami does have most people in S&P's best interests at heart...his ego may inflate to fill the sky occasionally but whoose doesnt?

I honestly believe this sets a dangerous precedent but is there any chance of the mods admitting they have over reacted or made a mistake? I doubt it, as people in power rarely, if ever admit their mistakes.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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