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Offlinerelativexistance
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Iran, another Iraq?
    #3430604 - 12/01/04 01:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think the United States will be continuing its policies and actions that it has had recently with Iraq in Iran? I recall a couple of weeks ago several US politians discussing how Iran was processing Uranium and how it was dangerous since they could possibly make nukes. Bush also said they needed proof that they ceased operations, kinda like the proof that he demanded of Iraq. Do you think this is just another effort to extend United States influence in the middle east, or is it an actual threat? The US and Iran haven't really gotten along well in the past could this be a possible excuse to go into action? Many questions there are, I hope nothing grave will happen in the future and I just don't know who to believe anymore.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: relativexistance]
    #3430638 - 12/01/04 01:32 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I hope not. The move for democracy over there is strong right now, and could likely succeed on its own, but if it's assisted by our military, people will suspect the new government to be an American puppet, and we will radicalize another generation and turn them against us.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: relativexistance]
    #3430645 - 12/01/04 01:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

According to the PNAC, they want to fight/win multiple wars in multiple theaters. So an Iran war while Iraq is still boiling hot sounds like a plan to them. But if Americans learned anything from Iraq they won't let Dumbya start anything in Iran unless they directly attack us. I, too, hope nothing will happen where we get dragged into another Iraq/Vietnam style war in Iran. It wastes our tax dollars and kills thousands of innocent Iranians and Americans while Bush's buddies that run United Defense, Halliburton, and other companies in the military-industrial complex reap the profits.
But if that really is their plan, expect the corporate media to start trying to sell the Iran war to the public just as it did for Iraq.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3430655 - 12/01/04 01:37 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:The move for democracy over there is strong right now, and could likely succeed on its own, but if it's assisted by our military, people will suspect the new government to be an American puppet, and we will radicalize another generation and turn them against us.




You're right about that one. But what makes you think Bush and his cronies want a democracy over there? Iraq has no chance at a real democracy, same for Afghanistan. If we try to install a puppet in Iran as we will for Iraq and as we did in Afghanistan, I believe we will be seeing one of the bloodiest wars that will last countless decades.


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: DNKYD]
    #3430691 - 12/01/04 01:46 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I agree I see more of a puppet government being set up. I mean how democratic is the US for that matter. I mean the people get to vote who gets put in office, but the system in which people vote is flawed and biased towards two parties.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: relativexistance]
    #3430828 - 12/01/04 02:19 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt it. There are only so many countries we can occupy at once. I've actually heard alot of people in Iran WISH that we would invade and give them democracy, but chances are that would not be good at all. Even though the people embrace democracy more than the Iraqis there are plenty of Zarqawi type terrorists there to run amok, and getting bombed lessens your enthusiasm for anything.

However, I think if it was feasible finding some way to overturn the government without an invasion would be thing.

BTW: methinks this talk about 'American puppets' is bullshit spouted by people who sympathize with autocrats and dicatators. Anyone short of Osama Bin Laden is going to be labeled an American puppet. Who gives a shit? It's better than Saddam Hussein and the Taliban.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: DNKYD]
    #3431596 - 12/01/04 07:04 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

DNKYD writes:

Iraq has no chance at a real democracy, same for Afghanistan. If we try to install a puppet in Iran as we will for Iraq and as we did in Afghanistan, I believe we will be seeing one of the bloodiest wars that will last countless decades.

This cracks me up. You have exactly zero evidence that the US "installed" a "puppet" in Afghanistan. News flash -- the people of Afghanistan voted for their current government. For the first time in their five thousand year history. Deal with it.

Same thing with Iraq. In a couple of months, the people of Iraq will vote for the politicians they want to succeed the interim government operating there now. This is not the way to "install" a "puppet". Hell, none of the folks here claiming the US "installs" whomever they want even remembers that when the Iraq Governing Council chose Allawi to be interim pres, it was an embarassing blow to the US, who made no secret of the fact they preferred Chalabi.

If the US can't even "install" Chalabi by persuading roughly fifty Council members -- all of whom were selected by the Iraq Provisional Authority, remember -- to do what they prefer, by exactly what means do you envision the US persuading millions of Iraqi voters to cast their votes as the US would like to see it rather than as Sistani recommends? Especially when the general consensus in this forum is that the majority of Iraqis hate the US for invading their country, so are unlikely to vote according to the way the Bush administration would like to see.


pinky


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #3432683 - 12/01/04 02:35 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Didnt the US set up a puppet government in Panama after Noreaga didn't do what they told him to do?


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #3432814 - 12/01/04 03:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:

This cracks me up. You have exactly zero evidence that the US "installed" a "puppet" in Afghanistan. News flash -- the people of Afghanistan voted for their current government. For the first time in their five thousand year history. Deal with it.




Bwaaahahahahahaha!!! That really cracks me up. So Hamid Karzai, who was a consultant to the American oil company Unocal, was "elected" in Afghanistan? Yeah, sure buddy  :rolleyes: We put him in power through a corrupt election so we would have an "ally" that wouldn't oppose the new pipeline we wanted to build. Sorry to say, but Afghanistan will still have to wait a while for it's first "democratic" election.

Karzai: A true patriot?


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: DNKYD]
    #3433883 - 12/01/04 07:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The French and the Canadians are in Afganistan. Did you forget about that?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: DNKYD]
    #3438444 - 12/02/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Karzai wasn't "installed" by the US or by Unocal, he was appointed interim leader by the Loya Jirga. This is easily checkable.

As for the election in Afghanistan being "corrupt", please provide credible sources backing this claim. Even Kharzai's opponents have grudgingly admitted that the voting irregularities investigated post election were not of sufficient import to have changed the outcome. This again is easily verifiable.

pinky


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OfflineRoker
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #5569646 - 04/29/06 07:58 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

fyi phred - The government of Kabul controls the city and the immediate surrounds. The rest of the country is divided up and controlled by the local strongmen, just as it was prior to the taliban. Just because an election was held doesn't mean they have a democracy. The only real change has been a more fragmented country (post taliban) and the increase in opium culitvation and consequent increase in opium production, which was almost eradicated under the taliban.

The real reason no one in Afghanistan cares about election irregularities is that life is hard there. And no one gives a shit about what some ineffectual American puppet is doing 50 miles away. And Karzai is a puppet - he is totally reliant on the US armed forces. Take them out of the country and he would be gone in a month. Just look at the assasination attempt where two of his bodyguards were killed by US forces!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Roker]
    #5569651 - 04/29/06 08:03 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Just because an election was held doesn't mean they have a democracy.




Actually, they've had two elections by now. And yes, it does mean they have a democracy. The fact that various actors within the country's borders defy that government doesn't change the fact they have a democratically elected government.


Phred


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OfflineRoker
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Roker]
    #5569656 - 04/29/06 08:11 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

so that means that pre-invasion Iraq was a democracy, the Democratic republic of china is also a democracy etc..


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Roker]
    #5569689 - 04/29/06 08:57 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

You have a very odd definition of democracy.

The leaders of China and pre-invasion Iraq were not democratically elected. The current leaders of Afghanistan and Iraq were democratically elected. Whether you like those facts or not doesn't change them. Facts are stubborn things.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #5569768 - 04/29/06 10:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

And yes, it does mean they have a democracy

No it doesn't. As Roker has explained to you Karzai's authority extends as far as the bottom of his street in Kabul.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #5569772 - 04/29/06 10:16 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

The current leaders of Afghanistan and Iraq were democratically elected. Whether you like those facts or not doesn't change them. Facts are stubborn things.


Four months on from the election the facts show Iraq still has no government. Familarise yourself with the facts.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Alex213]
    #5570100 - 04/29/06 02:50 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

In afghanistan more than 70% of the country is in taliban leadership. With no afgani or american prescence at all. Yea man that sure seems like they are democraticly ruling their country well.

Iraq is just as bad. why do you patriotic flag waving fools refuse to here the FACTS. as you so often like to point out.

Democracy isnt the answer for them or for us. Its a stupid Government and the world is finally starting to see that. I love that I just completely pissed off like ALL the right wing sheep in here. Peace

blaze2


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Offlinemonamine
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: relativexistance]
    #5570462 - 04/29/06 04:10 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

The situation in Iran is not even that similar to Iraq.

Iraq was not even a unified country until the British took it over before WW2.(Sadam was actually the only thread holding what's basically three seperate countries with an artificial border.) Iranians are actually pretty unified historically.

Also: Iraquis= mostly Arabs and Iran=Persians


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iran, another Iraq? [Re: Alex213]
    #5570630 - 04/29/06 05:03 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

No it doesn't.




Yes it does. Whether or not a country is deemed a democracy is not determined by how many actors within the country's borders defy the elected government of that country, but by the process by which the members of the country's government are selected.

We can argue about how respected (or disrespected) that democratic government might be, or how competent (or incompetent) it might be in dealing with those who challenge its authority, but that is a different discussion altogether.



Phred


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