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OfflineHumidity
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Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature
    #340871 - 06/14/01 08:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Here is something that I got out of a journal: Develpments in industrial microbiology.
Article: Weinberg; Secondary metabolism: control by temperature and inorganic phosphate

"Industrial, Environmental, and medical applications of temperature control of secondary metabolism have not been developed to their full potential. For example, in many industrial fementations, a single temperature somewhere between the optimum for growth and that best for production of the metabolite is used for the entire process. Rarely is the temperature shifted purposefully from that best for growth to that optimal for synthetase formation and then to the optimum for synthetase activity. If such temperature adjustments were to be made for the penicillin fermentation, an improvement in yield of 15% has been predicted, and in an earlier study, a 50% increase was actually attained." E.D.Weinberg

So, instead of trying to add hard to find chemicals to increase potency mabey there is a much simpler approch. We know what the optimal temperatures for growth are for our fungi, but we have no idea what the optimal temperatures for psilocybin production are. So mabey instead of incubating at optimal growth temperature mabey one should try finding the optimal metabolite temperature or someone could try changing the temperature at a certain point in the growth process to stimulate metabolite production.


Edited by Humidity on 06/14/01 08:56 PM.



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OfflineHumidity
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Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: Humidity]
    #340875 - 06/14/01 08:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Here is another good paragraph from the artical:

"Despite the existance of an exceedingly diverse array of both inert and phamacologically active products of secondary metabolism, several unifying priciples underlying their formation are known. Among these pricipals in the generalization that secondary metabolism has narrower tolerances for concentrations of inorganic phosphate and trace metals, as well as for ranges of temperature, pH, and redox potential than does growth of producer cells." E.D. Weinberg



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Offlineauto59009
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Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: Humidity]
    #342009 - 06/16/01 06:32 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

hmmm that is very fucking interesting indeed!!! i quite like microiology in general and it is good to see that there are people at the shroomery who also care about the science of this unique fungus... how do you propose that one would test the psilocybin production temp?

I am a compulsive liar:wink:
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Offlinegray1
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Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: auto59009]
    #342200 - 06/16/01 03:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

whoa...nice information indeed.
so what is needed is a parallel growth experiment in which a single cloned strain is grown under identical conditions until pinning/fruiting, at which point the same ammount of fully colonized material, say 1 cake, is continued at a specific and controlled temperature, say at first varying by five degrees, then a second set of experiemnts can vary by smaller increments as the general vicinity for increased production is found.
this would be a lot of work. here's an interesting question, if by raising the incubation by, say 10 degrees arbitrarily, from the normal growing and fruiting temperature, this may increase indole alkaloid production, but at he same time decrease size/volume of the fruits, as the conditions are no longer optimal for growth. can the increase in alkaloid production account for smaller fruit sizes and make the size sacrificce worth while, or more than worthwhile?? and to what point is fruiting size related alkaloid content? i would assume that it is about linear, directly proportional throughout sizes.
interesting.




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OfflineHumidity
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Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: gray1]
    #342949 - 06/17/01 07:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)


Here is a chart out of the article is shows temperatures for min./max. metabolite yields for 36 different microorganisms. You can see that the line indicates the temperature that permits vegitative growth. The vertical lines show were metabolite production was highest and the arrow heads show were it was the lowest.

From what I see most of the arrow heads (lowest metabolite) occur at the high temperature end of the vegatative growth. So very high temperatures are probibly not good if you are trying to get more potency. This of course does not mean that very low temps are better. From what I see it is pretty random from organism to organism where maximum metabolites occur. Which means we can't "guess" where it might be because it could be anywhere in the growing temperature range. Mabey the temperature is already known and someone just needs to find it in a book or journal.

More research needs to be done on how this data was collected so someone can run similar experiments and find what is best for our mushrooms.


In reply to:

so what is needed is a parallel growth experiment in which a single cloned strain is grown under identical conditions until pinning/fruiting, at which point the same ammount of fully colonized material, say 1 cake, is continued at a specific and controlled temperature, say at first varying by five degrees, then a second set of experiemnts can vary by smaller increments as the general vicinity for increased production is found.




This sounds like a reasonable way of doing a experiment to find the temp. I am not sure what the metabolite production vs. temp curves look like so I am not sure if this would work for sure, but it sounds like it would work.





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InvisibleSoup
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Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: Humidity]
    #343467 - 06/18/01 11:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I would suggest taking a serious look at low end temps of around 62-65 Fahrenheit. I've found mushies grown at this temperature to be consistantly more potent than mushies grown at around 72-80 all other things being the same. I'll be more interested in a few years after I learn more about biochemistry. Good luck



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OfflineHumidity
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Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: Soup]
    #343485 - 06/18/01 11:37 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your input soup. Now that I look at the chart again it does look metabolite production is highest at the low end of the growth range for many of the organisms on this list.

Do you know where I can find the min. and max. temperatures for growth for pilocybe species?



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Anonymous

Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: Humidity]
    #343710 - 06/18/01 06:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Stametes has them in his books, doesn't he? For the most part with the exception of the Coplandias, the cold weather species tend to be more potent. I think the answer to all the potency questions are in the coplandia puzzle. What makes the Coplandias so potent?



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OfflineHumidity
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Re: Secondary Metabolism: Control by Temperature [Re: ]
    #345886 - 06/21/01 11:37 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)
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Anyone interested in doing some experiments this is a device that would probibly come in handy. It could also be used for doing indoor Azure. experiments.

E-Z Temperature Control

Thermostatic control override for refrigerators and freezers. Allows for accurate temperature control within 1 1/2 degrees. The controller is plugged into the wall outlet, the temperature sensor (which is 4' long) is positioned through the door seal inside the refrigerator and the refrigerator is plugged into the controller. Temperature control range is 40-90 degrees.

TEM-EZ reg. $49.95 ON-LINE PRICE $47.45 2.0 shipping weight



You can buy it here. They have all kinds of useful thing at these online home brew places like pH paper, special sanitizers and so on.... They face many of the same probems that we do when it comes to contamination.

Edited by Humidity on 06/21/01 11:43 AM.



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"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking


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