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Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species?
    #2179545 -

The atmosphere is 21% oxygen. How would supplementing the atmosphere of a terrarium with oxygen affect the growth of the mushrooms?

It's a known fact that CO2 supplementation can significantly increase the growth rate of plants.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2179853 -

i really wish i could find the source,
but i remember seeing on i believe fanaticus.com once this same thing your talking about. The resulting mushrooms (on PF cakes) were HUGE, the stems were easily twice as large as normal, caps being approximately the same size. This leads to the question, if the increased O2 would lead to degradation of psilo compounds, who knows. I'll look around, maybe someone else would have more input, I believe its worth looking into.


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_______________________________________
CSC

Life's a garden, Dig it!
~Joe Dirt

Off Topic Website

Edited by Cow Shit Collector (12/15/03 02:25 PM)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Cow Shit Collector]
    #2179910 -

I would have to believe that as long as the integrity of the fruit/mycellium is maintained, the overall oxygen content wouldn't make a difference in regards to degradation...
If the cells were opened to atmosphere, than yeah, they'd probably degrade faster than my ex's mental state.
Damage done during picking could be easily contained with a CO2 flood of the chamber....
Interesting idea.


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"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2179961 -

Might not be a bad idea to starve of oxygen before harvest.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2179973 -

Probably a good idea....would lower O2 concentrations, and throw the mycellium back into a colonizing phase, preparing it to lose fruits with less loss of nutrients.
If you've got a good way to test, i'd say up the O2 concentration to about 40%....that should be a good mark.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2184956 -

at one time i had a terranium with a casing. with it was a salvia d plant.
i'm not sure if its the large substrate with small surface area, or the oxygen from the plant, or maybe salvinorim somehow got metabolized by the shrooms (?).
but these shrooms were extremly potent, X3 than normal.

a growin original

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: growin]
    #2185008 -

would it be possible to rig a chamber with an inlet tube that injects C02 from a tank? You could have it hooked to a solenoid and then to a timer. Would that be a good idea?

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: growin]
    #2185023 -

growin said:
at one time i had a terranium with a casing. with it was a salvia d plant.
i'm not sure if its the large substrate with small surface area, or the oxygen from the plant, or maybe salvinorim somehow got metabolized by the shrooms (?).
but these shrooms were extremly potent, X3 than normal.

a growin original


If you guys want Co2 in your chambers then stick a small green plant in there. Plants create 02 and C02 when they synthesize under light, but when you turn the lights off in that terrarium with the plant in there, the 02 production will stop and the C02 production will rise. Little tid-bit from my professor. I guess in order to control the concentration of C02 you'd want to experiemtn with the size of the plant you stick in there. Good luck.
-matt


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"If I don't see ya before the end of this one, I'll meet ya in the next one and don't be late" - Jimi Hendrix

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185028 -

Here's an interesting way to test this. Simple electrolysis experiment. Have a jar of water in the terrarium, and get a leftover ac-dc adapter, cut the end off, seperate the wires, unsheath them like a cm, and the put them in the water jar(wires not touching). The resulting reaction will be production of oxyden(and hydrogen) as the water will seperate into its component parts. Do not have an airtight terrarium, as you don't want a high concentration of explosive gasses. The higher power the adapter, the greater the effect. This way you could theoretically increase th oxygen content within your localized atmosphere.

mycomancer

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Mycomancer]
    #2185147 -

I thought about electrolysis. Seems something would have to be done with the Hydrogen. It would have to be at least vented seperate from the Oxygen. Otherwise you'd be asking for trouble.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185153 -

I think the early deep-divers method of atmosphere renewal is probably the best way to go.....the chemical is cheap, and easily replaceable, with no major side effects on atmospheric composition....
All the new chemical breathers use some hard to get shtuff.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185166 -

>The atmosphere is 21% oxygen. How would supplementing the atmosphere of a
>terrarium with oxygen affect the growth of the mushrooms?

Hardly at all. There are already more than 20% oxygen in air, as you stated yourself.


>It's a known fact that CO2 supplementation can significantly increase the growth
>rate of plants.
Indeed, but there are only about 0.03% of CO2 in normal air. If you raise this to only 1%, you got a 33 fold rise in concentration.

Try this with O2...  :smirk:


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Anno]
    #2185185 -

Oxygen could be increased up to 5 times normal. That could be significant. Untill someone performs an experiment and there are real numbers to look at, I guess we're just pissin' in the wind.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2185192 -

rebreathers use a mixture of sodium hydroxide, and calcium hydroxide, which removes the CO2.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2185215 -

Mushroom mycelium can fix CO2, also. Some CO2 actually speeds up growth.

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2188528 -

Studies have been done with other fungus. The oxygen requirements are extremely low for mushrooms. WAY less then what is in the atmosphere.

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: ]
    #2188544 -

Why exactly is air exchange so important then?


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2188559 -

Might a higher oxygen concentration reduce risk of contamination? That is part of the air exchange I think. Stagnant air and low oxygen content are favorable conditions for unwanted organisms. I'm not sure though.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2188742 -

to reduce CO2 at the casing soil surface, and increase the evaporation rate at the same spot.

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2189864 -

i had the assumption it was related to the amount of co2. more co2, to the organism, might be a sign that there are too many mushrooms for the location(maybe through evolution, the organisms that were all aggressive suffocated themselves leaving no offspring?) this would be similar to how canabis and other photosynths determine a guestimate of their proximity to other red spectrum absorbing organisms. our friends are so selfless!

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: amyloid]
    #2191423 -

so what if you were to get an oxygen tank? Rig that up to a timer and substitute that for fanning... plus it would be pure 0xygen, so if it is favorable to have a purer gas, that should cause large growth.

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: haz]
    #2191738 -

im not too keen on psilocybian respiration, but is it solely o2 the organism needs? i would guess not, i think that plenty of constant air exchange is more cost effective then any atmosphere rigs. i would still like more information on cubensis respiration if anyone happens to have any.


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"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: amyloid]
    #2191829 -

try it, plants like co2.


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Peace all.

Jater

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: dastats]
    #2193600 -

Plants use sunlight to fix CO2. THEY are manufacturing carbohydrate. They then respire in the presence of oxygen that carbohydrate to fuel growth.

Mushrooms rarely fix CO2, they obtain there carbohydrate from the substrate they are eating. They then respire in the prescence of oxygen.

Adding more CO2 to plants can increase growth rate if other environmnetal parameters are conducive to higher rates of Co2 fixation.

Mushrooms are generating CO2 by respiring. This CO2 has to be removed for fruiting to occur in CO2 sensitive mushrooms.

The oxygen requirements are WELL below atmospheric concentrations for both Plants and fungus. WELLLLLLLL below.

Plants and animals use oxygen similarly. Occasionaly use CO2 similarly.

Plants are using sunlight to creat chemical energy to fuel CO2 fixation.

Dark and light reactions are misnomers. Becasue the dark reactions occur during the day as well at night. It is the harnessing of photons of light to split water molecules that occurs ONLY in the presence of light. CO2 fixation can occur during the light and during the dark.

Forget about comparing CO2 use with Oxygen use. They are very different things.

The importance of AIR exchange is to remove excess CO2 from the immediate environmnet where pins will form, and to lower humidity at the surface of the mushroom. This lower humidity creates a water gradient from inside the mushroom 98% humidity to outside the mushroom 85-95% humidity. Imagine it being 100 % humid outside the mushroom and 98% inside. That is a very slight gradient going in the opposite direction. Outside to inside. Breaking up the boundary of air immediately against the surface of a mushroom creates a GRADIENT favorable to mushroom expansion by lowering the humidity in that AIR, regardless of the humidity of the rest of the surrounding air. Mushrooms can develope in 100% humidity, as long as that layer of air at the mushroom surface is lower in humidity. Anything below 98% will cause expansion. The lower you go from 98% down to 90%, the faster the evaporation rate, and the quicker the expansion. Below 90% it can have adverse effects, to rapid a rate.

From casing to pre pin, it is about building up moisture in the casing. Then it is about lowering the CO2 at the casing surface. Once buttons form, it is about maintaining water content in the casing, while creating a rapid, but not excessive evaporation rate from the casing soil surface to the Atmosphere in the fruiting chamber. Regardless of the Oxygen concentration these things will occur. AS LONG AS THE OXYGEN LEVEL does not go below a critical level, or above a critical level.

Oxygen is important during GROWTH, which is VERY different from fruiting. This point must be understood.

Growth is vegetative increase. Fruiting beyond the button stage is Primarily water expansion. Fruiting is related to the STORED nutrient during vegetative growth, and the availablity of water combined with a healthy evaporation rate.

By the time pins form, growth is very slow. The available nutrition in the substrate is limited, and pin development into mature mushrooms is related to how much nutrient was stored, how much is available in solution throughout the substrate and casing, and the AVAILABILITY of WATER.

Aborts are primarily about Water and stored nutrition. Not about how much nutritoin is left in the substrate, but how much the fungal colony ALREADY aquired.

For mushrooms to develope properly Light can become important for alot of species. Not an absolute requirement, but a very beneficial stimuli.

Air exchange lowers CO2 and increases evaporation rate during fruiting.
Filter patches lower CO2 concentrationwithin a jar of spawn. TO much CO2 can slow growth, alowwing for the removal of some of that Co2 increases growth rate. Again the oxygen requirements are WAY less then what is in the atmosphere. Like 1/20th or less.

I am still trying to understand why you think increasing oxygen will speed up growth of fruitbodies? Fruitbody growth is Water expansion primarily.

Disect a baby mushroom(button) and tell me how different the morphology is from a mature mushroom.
The real difference is between mycelium and buttons. That is growth and differentiation. Button to mature shroom is mostly expansion, until sporulation.

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: amyloid]
    #2193612 -

Any biological,biochemistry text will discuss respiration in detail. Cubensis respires the same as any.

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: ]
    #2193675 -


I think I remember some experiments done by Anno involving more and less gas exchange in jars of colonizing substrate. Specifically, I believe it was concerning Tyvec Vs. Polyfil.

A jar with a tyvec lid got hella air exchange and colonized very rapidly, but also dried out very quickly.

Incubating a jar with a wide tyvec lid in a high humidity environment should provide the ideal colonization environment. Supplementing oxygen may increase it furthur, but is unlikely to be anything phenomenal.

Adding lime to the substrate should serve to reduce the amount of CO2 in the jar since lime reacts with it to form insoluble calcium carbonate.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2193723 -

>Adding lime to the substrate should serve to reduce the amount of CO2 in the jar

There is no need to reduce CO2 in the jar at the colonization time.
I?m sure Teonan can give you a long reply as to why.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Anno]
    #2193832 -

Seems likely. Don't some people put lime in substrate for other reasons though.

I wonder if the CO2 reaction or the by-product calcium carbonate has any effect on growth.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2193924 -

"Don't some people put lime in substrate for other reasons though"
yes, to adjust ph

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: flow]
    #2193956 -

I think it improves shakability too.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2194049 -

Shakability....Now thats a great word

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: ]
    #2194213 -

so if im understanding what your saying right, RH @ 90% will cause mushrooms to expand due to the gradient u explained, but like u also stated growth and fruiting are differnt...
do mushrooms expand with water mass, or biomass from this air exchange?

is the expansion parrell to psilocybin prodution or would the mass increase with the psilocybin production staying the same?

would air exchange increase, decrease, or not affect the psychadelic potency(biomass:psychoactive mass)?

i have a feeling bigger may not always be better, at least in relation to potency.


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"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2194798 -

Quote:
Adding lime to the substrate should serve to reduce the amount of CO2 in the jar since lime reacts with it to form insoluble calcium carbonate.


I don't know about hydrated lime -- you have to consider each power of 10 of hydroxide ions is going to lower pH like 1, and each Ca(OH)2 molecule gives off 2 (OH)-'s. It can't take a lot to affect the pH a good deal -- I could work out the stoichiometry if you want, but I couldn't imagine it would take more than like 4 mg/ 100 cc's of water to raise the pH from 7-10....

The CO2 in the air should react with the hydroxide to form the carbonate up to a point, but I would think only the CO2 that actually goes into solution.... It could work, but you'd have to figure out how many CO2 molecules you need to convert and this would have to be a lot less than the amount of Ca(OH)2 molecules you'd put into the substrate which can't affect the pH too much or else you'll inhibit growth....

Ca(OH)2 is a really strong base, so watch out for the pH.

As for a seperate absorber of CO2 it could work up to a point, but I doubt it would be very efficient -- only dissolved CO2 should react.

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: amyloid]
    #2194970 -

they add both water and matter. The water gradient just determines how fast it happens, relative to temperature. A baby mushroom weighs less then an adult mushroom, dry and wet. I think lower temps combined with lots of air exchange yield the best quality fruits.

I think goodie production increases as vegetative growth slows.  i think goodie production peaks during differentiation(pin to button stage). I think it continues during the expansion phase, but begins to slow down as the mushroom prepares to release it's spores.

I think anything that speeds up maturity to fast will decrease potency, slightly.
Mushrooms grown at higher temperatures with good air exchange will be weaker then ones grown at lower temps with good air exchange.  I think the rate of maturation is more important then the amount of oxygen present during maturation.
I think oxygen presence above and below some critical points is necessary for healthy growth. 

I think gas exchange is a good think during vegetative growth in a jar. I think it replaces oxygen lost, and decreases Co2.  I think both are necessary for the most rapid healthy growth. I think replacing oxygen is responsible for the increased growth rate of filtered jars.  Filtered jars can be incubated at higher temps then non filtered jars without experiencing as much sweat.  I think Co2 reduction is critical for pin formation, in co2 sensitive mushrooms.. The reduction of Co2 from the jar has no adverse effect, it is being released from the fungus.

I use Lime to lower pH in the casing soil. Carefully prepared substrate shakes fine, I think the volume of substrate in the jar effects shakability.  I have never added lime to any substrate, no mushroom i have ever grown requires it.

I do not believe that increasing the oxygen concentration above 20% will make  better mushrooms. But I believe you should definetly find out for yourself.

Favorable evaporation rate

Ive seen completely sealed agar cultures fruit without light or gas exchange. Ive seen casings fruit in the dark in a rubbermaid with the lid on, imperfectly sealed, but completely closed. No fanning and no light beyond that at exposure during casing.  Fruits were not high quality.

I guess what I'm trying to say in ten thousand words or less :grin: the optimum level of O2 will be different for each and every dikaryon of each and every strain of each and every species in each and every substrate of each and every composition at each and every temperature, humidity, co2 concentration, light quality and concentration, etc.......... :lipsrsealed:

edit: light intensity not concentration. :lipsrsealed:

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: ]
    #2194977 -

To sum it up:
The air we breath has enough oxygen both for us and for mushrooms. :wink:


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Anno]
    #2194981 -

Your a man of few words. Wise words they are. :blush:

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: ]
    #2195688 -

thanks!


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: micro]
    #2195759 -

Lime is only slightly soluble in water, but in water it stays in suspension and dissolved lime is quickly replenished when converted to insoluble Calcium Carbonate.

Also, a lot of lime is dolomitic, which contains a large percentage of magnesium. (Oxide I think.)

I know shrooms don't like magnesium, but I'm not sure if what's in lime will affect them or not.


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2195880 -

Quote:
Lime is only slightly soluble in water, but in water it stays in suspension and dissolved lime is quickly replenished when converted to insoluble Calcium Carbonate.


Calcium carbonate (lime) is only slightly soluble, but calcium hydroxide (hydrated lime) is very soluble which is why it's a strong base. This is what reacts with CO2:

Ca(OH)2 + CO2 ---> CaCO3 + H2O

Forming the (almost) insoluble version of lime.

Quote:
Also, a lot of lime is dolomitic, which contains a large percentage of magnesium.... I know shrooms don't like magnesium, but I'm not sure if what's in lime will affect them or not.


Yeah -- dolomitic lime usually has like 11 or 13% Mg in it -- it can be a lot higher in some cases, but this is usually what I've seen. Stamets mentions that Mg++ can inhibit fruiting in a lot of mushrooms and reccomends using lime with 2% or less Mg++, but I've used 13% and haven't noticed any real difference with cubies . I'd stay away from anything much higher than that, though -- it should have the % Mg++ written on the bag.

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: micro]
    #2196172 -

Everything I know about lime I learned on the Cheney Lime website:

http://www.cheneylime.com/

Cheney lime is the brand of lime that I have.

Quote:

Lime is only slightly soluble in water:
Quicklime (calcium oxide) and water chemically react to form hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide), a compound that is only slightly soluble in water. For a solubility comparison, table salt (NaCl) has a solubility in water of 36.0 grams per 100 grams of saturated solution at 20 degrees C, as compared to hydrated lime, which has a solubility in water of 0.165 grams at the same temperature and volume of water. The two factors that enable lime to be so effective a base, despite its low solubility in water, are: (1) The smallness of the hydrated lime particle size and (2) the double hydroxyl groups that result from each molecule of lime that does go into solution (dissociates in water).
The hydrated lime particle is so small that, when the lime/water mixture is agitated, the lime particles stay in suspension for a relatively long time, even if the agitation is stopped. This is due to "brownian motion" (the constant vibration of water molecules) which constantly buffet the suspended lime particles. If the solution is constantly agitated (mixed) the particles will remain in suspension indefinitely. The suspended particles have a very high total surface area which means that, as the lime in solution is used up in reactions, more lime quickly dissolves into the solution ( Le Chatelier's Principle -" ... if a change is imposed on a system at equilibrium, the position of the equilibrium will shift in a direction that tends to reduce that change.") Each molecule of calcium hydroxide that ionizes produces two hydroxyl ions (OH-), thus providing a plentiful supply of neutralizing power. A good analogy of the effect of particles with a high surface area is that of a granary explosion. Grain, in a pile, is not all that combustible. However, if you pulverize it, and then suspend it as a fine dust in the air, a spark can result in an explosion.




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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2197397 -

Hmmmm... interesting, thanks! I looked it up on MSDS:

pH: 12.4 (sat. sol.)

....so I guess it makes sense, but then I guess it's not a very strong base (despite everything that says it's a strong base.)

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: micro]
    #2197896 -

I guess that depends on what your definition of a strong base is.

A small amount of it would probably be able to neutralize alot of acid... eventually.

It's weird stuff. It's more soluble in cold water than in hot (like you would expect a gas to be) .


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2207270 -

An article that fits very neatly here:





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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Anno]
    #2207658 -

Ima go shoot up some H2O2 right now!


brb


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Re: Optimum O2 level for cubensis, and other species? [Re: Anno]
    #2208732 -

HAHAHA, now that is funny!

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Advanced Mycology
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