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OfflineFrog
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Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi
    #3142158 - 09/16/04 03:05 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I met a prospective client tonight who was sued by his girlfriend for domestice violence. Let me set up the scenario for you:

Very nice guy. Somewhat intelligent, but probably on the lower end. Very in love with this girl. Going to school to become a teacher. DOESN'T HAVE ANY MONEY!!!

In general, attorneys charge between $1500 and $2500 to take this kind of case. I told him I would do it for $1000. And honestly, that's a fair price. But I've been told by other attorneys that I don't charge enough. That's probably why I'm so broke all the time. I work my ass off for not enough money.

But I was thinking about this. I could help him. I have the talent, the skill, the knowledge, to help him.

But I'm so fucking broke myself! Okay, I'm not "fucking broke". I am making ends meet. But one of the reasons that I got myself to this place of being a "poor" attorney is that I didn't charge enough, or I did it for free. I just feel so bad when someone is poor but needs an attorney.

So this guy had $100. The work he needs done would really justify charging him $1500 to $2500. I finally broke down and told him $500 up front, and another $500 in a month.

What's wrong with me? Keep in mind that he is not entitled to an attorney. So I can charge whatever I want and fuck him if he can't afford it.

But he had a speed impediment. He stuttered. If he went to court on his own, he would lose. He wouldn't be able to speak.

A part of me thinks, help this guy for free! He has no money and needs help! Another part of me thinks: I need money too!! I am broke too!! (and part of being broke is because I have been helping people for free!!!)

Any one have any ideas on my dilemma???


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3142173 - 09/16/04 03:10 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Take the grand, win the case.

He'll be happy that you undercut all the other lawyers in town, and happy that he had good representation.

Generousity is a great thing, but you can't be generous if you don't have anything to give.

Strike the balance.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3142238 - 09/16/04 03:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

btw, keep in mind that even though $1000 sounds like a lot of money, I will be spending HOURS on his case.  I will probably spend 4-6 hours just preparing the docs for rebutting his gf's claim.  I will probably be in court for 1-3 hours on the date of the hearing.  I will have to go to court to get copies of important docs that he didn't get. 

And also keep in mind that the money goes for my costs of running an office, for which I pay $500 in rent, alone.  I pay for all postage, copies, support staff, phone, etc.  So the $1000 that he pays me is not "spending money".  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3142243 - 09/16/04 03:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

But it will help you run your office,a nd help him.

And you can always charge out the butt to the people that can afford it.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #3142274 - 09/16/04 03:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Randolph, I read your first post, and usually I will let a few people respond before I respond back, but I will just say now that yours is the type of response I usually get. 

And yes, I can charge WAY up the butt to people who can afford it, if I go low for him.

But what is it that I feel this way?  Most people who become attorneys can't wait to charge "up the butt" to ANY client!  Why am I feeling so protective of people, even though my own family needs the money I earn? 

But good poings, and I will keep them in mind.  Go low on the poor ones, and go high on the rich ones. 


And, btw, I always kick ass in court.  No worries there!  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and [Re: Frog]
    #3142412 - 09/16/04 04:22 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I almost don't want to reply to this 'cause you know what I'm gonna say. If it feels right to help the dude out, take the $1,000 and win his case for him. Sounds like you already know what you want to do here, so go with it. Money's important, but sometimes helping people is more important.

But, keep in mind that I'm a sap who lets everyone live with me for free, so my view on this could be a little fucked.


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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OfflineDigs
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3142517 - 09/16/04 05:39 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If I didn't have a full load of cases at the moment I would take him for however much he could pay. If I had a bunch of other stuff to work on that would net me more cash I'd tell him I was too busy most likely. I'd like to help him but you can't drop everything any time someone needs a favor done. But I'm a heartless bastard so~


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3142597 - 09/16/04 07:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It is strikingly discernible that this behavior is deeply rooted in seeking acceptance, in the absence of self-worth/esteem, et cetera.
The ego seeks approval. People seek approval. We all come through an educational training where we teach our kids to do little things, and we pat them on the head and give them a chocolate. "Did I do okay, Mummy?" "Sure, you did okay," Pat pat.
The family is where the ego learns to look for approval, and then, as the person grows up, he or she goes out into the world to win the approval of everyone else. The ego is influenced by everything everyone else wants. Why? 'Coz it's stupid. Why would it fall for a stunt like that? But it does, constantly.

The point is that we are constantly trying to win people's approval because we are not taught to grant ourselves our own approval. In doing so, we usually spend alot of cash frantically buying things and giving money away, hoping that somehow these actions will make us okay. In trying to win people's approval, one gives away some of his or her power, and it exposes them to being manipulated.

Either people accept you or they don't. You did not come here to be manipulated, just to keep people happy. What you are is what you are. You can change it. But first you have to accept it, for it is the truth. In accepting yourself, you don't have to get into a huge ego trip, but you do have to come to the point of being satisfied with what you are.
None of us is perfect, otherwise we wouldn't be here. The very virtue of the quest is that much of it lies ahead. But a long as you are making progress, you can settle into the fact that you don't have it all together. You can be happy that sometimes you arrive late, or that occasionally you have let people down, or that your checks bounce, or whatever.

Yet, we tend to let ourselves get sucked into other people's opinions, and we buy into what they think we should be. So the next time you bounce the rent check on the landlord, instead of feeling rotten and listening to all the thing she or she might have to say about your flakiness, just smile sweetly, shrug, and say, "Aerobic checks. They bounce around a lot." You are eternal, immortal, and infinite. The fact that you can't count is just a minor aberration.

And in your case, I perceive that it's entirely your own inner-lack of acceptance projected into the situation at hand which creates the fallacious mind-conceived notion that you are not worthy of charging the individual what you would otherwise charge if you fully accepted yourself, thus felt intrinsically worthy and rightfully so. Am I correct, or am I right?



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and [Re: Frog]
    #3142680 - 09/16/04 09:23 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You're an attorney with a heart. I think that's very cool. :thumbup:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3145002 - 09/16/04 08:42 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you for the responses, but I think that Skorp might have hit it on the head.  I base this on things that have happened in the past, and things that others have said, and it always seems to come back to the same point.

So, Swami Skorpivo, how do I fix this problem, assuming that you are correct? 

:heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3150891 - 09/18/04 05:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Since I wrote my last response, I have thought more about this, and I realize that I don't think it's what skorp said, either. I just have a bad feeling about taking a lot of money from people. I've been poor, too. So when I tell someone to give me $1000, and even more at times, I know it's a lot of money. I feel bad about that.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineCaRnAgECaNdYS
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3151520 - 09/18/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You shouldn't feel bad about charging people for your services. You are a lawyer, lawyers get paid for what they do.  You can always work pro bono, but where will that leave you. You can still help people out without putting yourself in the poor house. If you decide to take his case, that's awesome, help the guy out, win and move on. If not, you shouldn't let it get to you. He can find a lawyer who doesn't charge for their services and move on from there.

Lawyers put in alot of hours, I'm sure in some cases, you spend alot of personal time on your work. $1000. is a fair price, I'm sure your time and effort is worth much more than that. Charge the man whatever you feel is fair, if he doesn't realize how generous your being and denies your services, then move on to the next client. Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with charging one client $1000. and another client $2000. If you charge everyone $1000. Eventually you'll start hurting financially. This may sound cold hearted but I'll say it anyways...think about yourself first. I'm not suggesting that you stop caring about the less fortunate, but do what you gotta do to take care of you first!

I hope things work out! :thumbup:


--------------------

The secret to being funny is to say smart things stupidly, or is it stupid things smartly? Whatever..it's not rocket surgery...or something like that.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3151730 - 09/18/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Since I wrote my last response, I have thought more about this, and I realize that I don't think it's what skorp said, either.  I just have a bad feeling about taking a lot of money from people.  I've been poor, too.  So when I tell someone to give me $1000, and even more at times, I know it's a lot of money.  I feel bad about that.




Hum........... You and I have a serious thing in common. I make this beautiful copper artwork. In my best year I sold 60,000 bucks. But it should have sold for 180,000 bucks. I spent that whole year working for 13,000 bucks after costs. Very fucked. I did this year after year. What did I learn?? I stupid? I am a sucker?? I need the ego boosts?  What is it....Hum???

After going over it many times. I came to a grand conclusion.


A persons wealth is not judge by how much cash they leave their kids but, by how many people show up at their funeral.

See it sounds like you are a very caring, compasionate and rare human. How wonderful. You should try praticing law in a area that supports the helping of others.

Can't say it will work for you but this worked for me.

I decided to make a channel for all my unselfish habits. I got all thepersons I knew with love for people. We started a non-profit homless shelter. Ya I know there ain't no cash in that. Your right there ain't but, there are lots of the coolest people you meet.

Anyway after a year I meet the mayor of our town. At that time I lived in a huge town. This guy hears about my art. Make a long story short. I got a 14,800 dollar art commision, bonus. Which lead to several other very rich people which lead to another big chunk of change. The people I sell my art too, are people I would have never meet or even been able to sell my art to. Unless I had not made the decision to help the poor. The decision to be what I am. I ain't afriad to charge out the ass to very rich people. They expect it. Besides you will find that rich folk would rather just give huge sums of cash to rare people like yourself. They don't have the time to be compassionate. They would rather pay you to do the good deeds. I can not tell you how many side jobs I have gotten from all the people I have meet during my time involved with the non-profit shelter. The first impression they always get from me is my rare one. They love me from the get go. People are drawn to truth :thumbup:


I could go on and on but in summary,

You have very rare and wonderful qualites
You are looking in the wrong places to be paid
If you follow your true self
Others will provide wealth.
Both in love and cash.
Then you will find thoses dream clients because you have shown rareness and beauty. Those may not be what your clients want but that is why I suggested a change of expertise. Find a group who need the type of lawyer you truly are.

I heard someone say this once, Do what you love first and the money will find you.

It is true.
Very true

Celebrate in your person
You are rare.
Be true to who you are and you will recieve the full reward


The rest of your life can be used for unselfish charging of Clients. But if your really anything like me by the time you get to the point of really understanding of what you are. Then cash plays second place. Then you wake up one day ,to the surprize of cash just flowing to you. :thumbup:

Very nice to know there are people like you around :heart:


Edited by Fucknuckle (09/18/04 08:19 PM)


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3153269 - 09/19/04 05:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Charge him, or play the morals card and do it cheap/free and make him work his ass off for you in return.  Barter is just as acceptable.

:smile:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #3154744 - 09/20/04 01:53 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Desiree said:
You shouldn't feel bad about charging people for your services. You are a lawyer, lawyers get paid for what they do.  You can always work pro bono, but where will that leave you. You can still help people out without putting yourself in the poor house.




That has been the problem in the past is that I have taken on cases where the person couldn't afford to pay, and basically, it put me in the poor house.  My ex used to be so pissed when I would take a case and not charge. 

Quote:

If you decide to take his case, that's awesome, help the guy out, win and move on. If not, you shouldn't let it get to you. He can find a lawyer who doesn't charge for their services and move on from there.




Um, not likely.

Quote:

Lawyers put in alot of hours, I'm sure in some cases, you spend alot of personal time on your work. $1000. is a fair price, I'm sure your time and effort is worth much more than that. Charge the man whatever you feel is fair, if he doesn't realize how generous your being and denies your services, then move on to the next client. Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with charging one client $1000. and another client $2000. If you charge everyone $1000. Eventually you'll start hurting financially. This may sound cold hearted but I'll say it anyways...think about yourself first. I'm not suggesting that you stop caring about the less fortunate, but do what you gotta do to take care of you first!




No, you're absolutely right.  Other attorneys have told me that it's better to sit on my ass doing nothing than to work for free for ANYONE.

And also, as for me being a Christian, something else you said is true.  Someone once told me that God didn't expect us to help others for free unless we had taken care of our "own" first.  If I don't have enough money for myself and my family, then I shouldn't be doing it for free for anyone else.  When I am set up and doing really well, I can take pro bono. 

Quote:

I hope things work out! :thumbup:




Thank you for your advice.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3154755 - 09/20/04 01:59 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Fucknuckle, I read your post, and it was beautiful.  First, thank you, and second, I understand what you are saying.

See, I give a lot of freebees.  I figure that the day will come that the people for whom I did the free stuff will either pay me to do something or will refer others.  I feel like I am working in advance for the money to which I am entitled.

And the reason for which I feel I am entitled is because, like you, I do good work.  I am very good at what I do.  What's more, I am honest and ethical, and you don't come across many attorneys like that. 

So that's why I decided Skorp might be wrong.  The reason I decided at first he might be right was because when I first became an attorney, my ex used to say that I must think I'm not entitled to what I should be paid or I would charge more, if at all.

But now, I do charge more, but when I feel like someone can't afford it, I feel bad for charging so much.  The problem has been that I can't afford to be charitable right now. 

But that's also where what you are saying comes in:  Pay it forward.  It will all work out.

You sound like a good person, too.  I wish that I could meet all of you at some gathering.  Some day, when I am doing well, I will be going to one of those darned gatherings.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Barbi]
    #3154768 - 09/20/04 02:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mndfreeze said:
Charge him, or play the morals card and do it cheap/free and make him work his ass off for you in return.  Barter is just as acceptable.

:smile:




mndfreeze, this is true, what you are saying.  I am actually bartering for my office space right now.  Appearances for the space.  I will have to apply what you are saying to my clients.  "If you don't have money, what can you give me in exchange?"

Last year, a client gave me his 6-month old laptop in exchange for taking his case.  That was an excellent barter!  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3155610 - 09/20/04 02:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
I heard someone say this once, Do what you love first and the money will find you.





I am a big huge proponent of the thought that you posted.  I talk about it almost on a daily basis.  I know that sounds boring, but I talk to a lot of people.  Almost inevitably the subject comes up, and I tell people that we are here for a purpose, as Emerson proposes in one of his essays, which I posted in the S&P forum on someone's thread. 

(Coincidentally, as I am sitting here posting this, a guy just came in trying to sell us a new copy machine.  He started telling us that he was thinking about going to law school, but he realized it wasn't what he was here for, and that he believes that he needs to do what he's here to do or he won't be happy, and he said if he does what makes him happy, he will make money eventually. :grin: )

Emerson says that if we find the thing for which we are here to do, than it won't be work, but it will be the easiest thing in the world to do.  I think people end up doing work for money instead of finding that it was they were meant to be here to do.

And as you said otherwise in your post, the money comes easily if you find what it is you love to do, first.

Maybe that's what you are saying is get in there and help people who can't afford it now, and a door will open up somewhere else.  But I can't afford to work for free yet.  I have worked for free for poor people here and there, but I cannot devote my time to poor people yet. 

Actually, I'm thinking about it more now, or maybe it's that some insight is coming to me.  Maybe I should contact a church or organization and tell them I will take one case a month or something, doing pro bono work.  (Free legal services.)  Hmmm.  Maybe you are a "sign".  :wink:

Well, anyways, I loved the whole thing that you wrote.  You have a beautiful mind.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and shi [Re: Frog]
    #3155845 - 09/20/04 03:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Well, anyways, I loved the whole thing that you wrote.  You have a beautiful mind.




:blush:
Thanks


You should do what you love. If helping the poor is or not it. For me it is a outlet. It may be something else for you. You must understand, the magic is, rewards come for nowhere. They just appear. You will know them because, they catch you by suprize and usally end up with tears of joy. :grin:

Mabey we will meet under the sun one day soon. Life is full of turn arounds You seem like the type of person whom I would enjoy very much :thumbup:


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Sigh...Work and money and ethics and my own morality and [Re: Frog]
    #3156199 - 09/20/04 04:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Charge him the most money that you think you can get from him. Your job is not a charity; you are the one that worked hard at school to get where you are. Be careful that he is bullshitting about not having any money, if he detects that you are a softy he might know exactly what he's doing.


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