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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization?
    #3026233 - 08/20/04 12:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is something I have been struggling with lately. Via the paths of psychadelics or meditation do you think we realize reality or derealize it? Some of my hardest times have been when faced with derealization. The same goes with the ego, does higher consciousness promote a realization of the self, or depersonalization?

In psychology derealization and depersonalization are painful and alienating mental conditions. Yet Buddhists, Hindus and Psychonauts alike seem to find something positive from very similar states. To many people to be aware is to find something essential to happiness, rather than to lose it. I must say I'm still a bit confused and skeptical about this.

I realize this may be a tough question because perhaps higher awareness means both of these things simultaneously. I guess in Zen they would say "There is no realization and no derealization." For me, though I am all to familiar with the idea I still struggle with my deep understanding.

Thoughts?


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3026262 - 08/20/04 12:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Both take place. You realize that much of life in today's Western society is false, and you discover a new kind of life that is true. You unlearn your ego to discover your true self. As you move backwards, you move forwards.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3026298 - 08/20/04 12:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I dumped on a post a bit back saying the same thing about the buddhism mentality to detach yourself from life and desires, isolating and unproductive indeed. I couldn't imagine a more useless meaningless and uneventful existance. I bought into some of that nonsense for a while and it was stupid of me. I speak from experience and am still struggling to work my way back into the mix because I want to feel again like I use to. I want the feeling of accomplishing things related to achieving desires oh hell, let people detach from life and become removed from all desires and figure it out for themselves.

I got a cave to sell ya! Just sit there by yourself and chant omm for the next 40 years and I bet in your new found enlightenment that you will tell me that that idea sucks the big one.

I like zen philosophy and agree with the zen quote because it has balance. This detachment and removal of all desires stuff is very misinterpreted and misunderstood IMHO.

Simply put, if you are attached to something in a needy way and your desires are based on need, you will be a slave to these things and suffer in that. Now, you can enjoy all of the freaking materialism your heart desires as long as you don't have a neeeeeeeeed for it, as long as you can take it or leave it.

Being needy and living in lack mentality is the delusion to work on and thats it. Let them eat cake! Better yet, let them lick the frosting off a lovers body- geeeez people, this is life- live it to the full. As auntie mame use to say, "life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving."


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/20/04 01:45 AM)


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Offlinefredthetree
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3027552 - 08/20/04 09:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Higher Awareness" is most personal.

What for me may be realization, for others, will inevitably become dearealization?



Something to think about: Nobody cares if you think you're Santa Claus, clouds are made of cheese, and sundays are a conspiracy.


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OfflineMrBuzin
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #6482365 - 01/21/07 02:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

this is a problem for me 24/7 and i can't get out of it


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Offlineck10n3
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: MrBuzin]
    #6482532 - 01/21/07 03:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think the best way to go about it is to look into other practices. Ponder on them. Then completely forget about them and act on whims. You will lead yourself in the right direction on your own.

Realize that reality is whack. Derealize that reality. Then, that is your higher awareness.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #6482607 - 01/21/07 04:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Via the paths of psychadelics or meditation do you think we realize reality or derealize it?




I think we realize it. We begin to see it as it is, for what it is.

Quote:

Some of my hardest times have been when faced with derealization.




What do you mean?


Quote:

The same goes with the ego, does higher consciousness promote a realization of the self, or depersonalization?





Depends, I guess, on what you mean by "higher consciousness" and by "self".

Quote:

In psychology derealization and depersonalization are painful and alienating mental conditions. Yet Buddhists, Hindus and Psychonauts alike seem to find something positive from very similar states.




"Similar" states is the key word there. Depersonalization implies that there is a 'person' or some sort of abiding entity from which you can distance yourself from, resulting in a painful feeling of alienation and separation. But this is an implication and assumption that must be challenged and analyzed! I suspect that what is often referred to as depersonalization is actually the result of one suppressing or repressing part of themselves (perhaps the Jungian shadow self). The wonder and beauty of awareness practice is being able to bring the light of awareness to shine brightly on all parts of the psyche without judgment or opinions and without jumping to conclusions; objectively.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: dblaney]
    #6482632 - 01/21/07 04:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's nice to find people that are sensitive to the things that you have finely assessed, and even nicer to find people who are sensitive to things beyond what you have assessed.

I contrast this to the confusion I experience when I run into people who assume they are highly developed because of some action or recognition, but who are insensitive to what is happenning. (i.e. no actual ongoing assenssing happens, just shtick... they are probably asleep at the wheel and resting onthe laurels of the past or on someone else's achievements)


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #6483132 - 01/21/07 06:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I found the article 'A Review of Transpersonal Theory and Its Application to the Practice of Psychotherapy' written by Mark C. Kasprow, M.D., Bruce W. Scotton, M.D. very insightful when trying to find answer to the same questions.

According to the article there is a difference between depersonalization/derealization symptoms and the enlightening transpersonal experiences;

Many poets, philosophers, and clinicians have pointed out the apparent similarities between the utterings of madmen and those of sages. In both psychosis and "enlightenment," individuals appear to have altered ego boundaries and to think and act in irrational ways. But in the case of a psychotic regression, this is a prerational, pre-egoic state, and in the case of healthy mystical experience, it is a transrational state built upon and extended beyond a normal, healthy ego. Wilber names this confusion between the two conditions the "pre/trans fallacy," and Freud's criticisms of religion as a regressive defense may be partly understood in terms of this error.

The concept of the pre/trans fallacy underscores the necessity of healthy ego development as a prerequisite for constructive transpersonal experience: without it one is unable to integrate such experiences and is at risk of psychological fracture and regression into lower functioning states. Interestingly, character development is emphasized in many of the non-Western wisdom traditions that use various techniques to induce transpersonal states. Often the aspirant must go through extensive personal development and moral training prior to practicing the methods, as a safeguard to prevent subsequent spiritual difficulties. Also of interest are studies showing a positive correlation between mystical experiences and enhanced psychological functioning, further underscoring the substantial difference, in spite of superficial appearances, between psychotic regression and transpersonal states.


There's much more there, so whoever might be interested I suggest (s)he reads the entire article. You can find it at Documents for Serious Psychonauts site (first in the batch of PDF files). URL: http://www.markovide.com/psychonaut/


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #6483363 - 01/21/07 07:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Nice Post. makes alot of sense.

If anyones ever tripped around animals with an open mind, its a perfect demonstration of pre-egoic vs trans-egoic.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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OfflineGrok
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: daytripper23]
    #6483558 - 01/21/07 08:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Know yourself as love and you'll stop worrying about ego.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: Grok]
    #6484282 - 01/21/07 10:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I like that, knowing oneself as love. But it's limiting. It's putting yourself into a box. How can you be free if you're limiting yourself by a concept like love?

What is love? How is it defined? What if suddenly you are angry? Are you still love? Is anger love? If you suddenly find yourself not being love, then what? Is not being love in some way not true? These are the questions that came to mind when I read your statement.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineGrok
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: dblaney]
    #6487652 - 01/23/07 12:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I see love as unlimited/limitless, you can't pin it down in words and concepts. Just like God cuz God is love! Ego is what boxes us in. Love is dynamic and adaptable to any circumstance, being love is simply acting upon what feels best to me based on my understanding that I have nothing to lose, I always have everything I need, and I know that nothing matters. It's all a big joke. Makes it easy to be happy and love everything when ya know that. Even if I was wrong it's still a good way to look at life. Makes it a lot more fun. I would never have any reason to be angry.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Higher Awareness: Realization, or Derealization? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6488684 - 01/23/07 07:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with you part way. Essential Theravadin Buddhism is monastic. End of story. Other forms allow one to live life, and even Vajrayana says Enlightenment is possible in this lifetime. Catholic catechism books for children still teach with pictures. Under a picture of a family, the caption reads, "This is good," but under the picture of the monk and nun it reads, "This is better."

I personally place Buddha and Plato side by side as contemporaneous examples of the archetypal philosopher, East and West. Buddha points the way to 'disincarnation,' by unraveling the 'knots' of existence that keep us tied to this world. His philosophy points at the 'microstructure' of the psyche, like quantum physicsists point to the microstructure of matter. We can understand the perspective, but we don't actually 'live' at these levels. We live in conventional levels of reality, but it is important to Know these other degrees of reality to keep our desires for the conventional world in check and not become addicted to existence. I don't think most people can enjoy life without becoming addicted to the foundational givens: survival becomes workaholism and greed, sex becomes all manner of driven lust, eating turns to gluttony and morbid obesity, not to mention non-edible forms of 'oral incorporation' like conspicuous consumerism and wanting to 'have-it-all.'

Maintaining a Buddhist, Stoic, Epicurian or some other form of The Middle Way allows for optimal freedom to transcend these addictions and permit freedom of expression of more subtle perceptions that become available to us when we can clear the gravitational pull of these earthbound chakra conditions. The starving artist has to starve, just like the ascetic holy [wo]man in order to rise above the downward pull. Meditation and prayer are essential to the life of the higher [wo]man, but NOT to the exclusion of those earthly centers which allow us to expand horizontally - buy a house, plant a garden, tend a pool, etc. It is just usually the case that to expend much more time on horizontal expansion than on vertical ascension, one misses the point of human development just as much as the cave-dwelling hermit. A Donald Trump is as unbalanced as a hermit - both in their exclusion of opposite poles of essential human experience.

I realize that this acceptance of the world as good is not very Gnostic of me, but it is closer to The Middle Way, expressed Kabbalistically, wherein one 'repairs' the world while one is in it, not merely attempts to escape the world. My 51% bias is towards the 'flight of the alone to the alone,' but 49% of me of continues to clothe myself in a healthily embodied state, in an interesting home with a desirable woman.

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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