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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29311385 -

Maybe to say "I don't need practice" is part of my alarm in its popularity. To give it credit, I think it's akin to practice that is passive, like insight I assume is not really more than observation, of the breathing, or thought. Mindfulness is the same of some object. Vasistha gives no method that I know of except to 'cease movement of thought', though his texts are supplemented with pranayama. ACIM emphasizes largely the need to do nothing, to stop assuming. Shankara is like that, not much practice at all given except to such as contemplate Tat Tvam Asi, Thou Art That, or just be Brahman. Ashtavakra torches notions of practice. Tilopa says something like let the mind rest in naught, ... Zen is very much like that I think.

Longchenpa like Ashtavakra seemed merciless around practices, but then I found an essay by him expounding even a superior nobility in mantrayana.

The spinvis wars continued "...Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside." :laugh::heart:

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: syncro]
    #29311409 -

Well I find it strange to make this 'soup' of different ideologies.

Quoting the importance of sila and then dismissing it as unnecessary would be confusing to me. But I don't agree with such a thing, avoiding this internal confusion.

I stand on the side of sila being important. If one lacks it, practice, practice, practice to have more ethical conduct. If one has it, practice, practice, practice ethical conduct. If it comes naturally to act ethically, that is wonderful! That makes practice quite natural!

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29311427 -

This conversation makes me think of the Taoist idea of “wu wei”, often translated as “effortless action” or a kind of non-doing of one’s moment to moment activities.

Such an idea might help to balance out the egoic side of being virtuous. You know, “look at me, I am so good and virtuous, I did the right thing and I am the superior student and practitioner.”

If we see the roots of both ethical and unethical behavior, then perhaps ethical behavior does start to emerge more “naturally”, without so much effort, because it is in line with what we want, and what we perceive as in the best interest of all involved. There is no longer any sense of sacrifice, in other words. And there is no longer any sense of superiority or inferiority, because we are like a tree drawing water through its roots, or the river winding its way through the valley, the mom nourishing her young with her milk.


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All communication
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and rhythm

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29311462 -

What sort of effortless actions do you engage in?

I can effortlessly crave pizza, or a beautiful woman. But I find it takes effort throughout the day to speak kindly, truthfully, and compassionately to all. It isn't natural for me. I don't find I was raised in a society in which it is well modeled to do so. But the craving for cheesy, fatty foods and sex are modeled every few minutes on TV and elsewhere.

Someone made the comment the other day: why the heck are there so many fast food restaurants? A modern city is filled with this stuff.

So in my case what comes naturally depends on what surrounded me in my natural environment. Because of this I see no fault in aspiring for and practicing virtue where it was absent, scarce, or underrepresented.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29311507 -

My aim was to find similarity, that these paths have the same effect which was confirmed.

Ethics apart from concentration though is a bit different to think about, but compassion rises with peace.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: syncro]
    #29311514 -

What effect are you finding for yourself?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29311590 -

Kickle said:
What sort of effortless actions do you engage in?

I can effortlessly crave pizza, or a beautiful woman. But I find it takes effort throughout the day to speak kindly, truthfully, and compassionately to all. It isn't natural for me. I don't find I was raised in a society in which it is well modeled to do so. But the craving for cheesy, fatty foods and sex are modeled every few minutes on TV and elsewhere.

Someone made the comment the other day: why the heck are there so many fast food restaurants? A modern city is filled with this stuff.

So in my case what comes naturally depends on what surrounded me in my natural environment. Because of this I see no fault in aspiring for and practicing virtue where it was absent, scarce, or underrepresented.


The translation of wu wei as “effortless action” is likely an intentional paradox. As I ponder your question, what comes up for me is the idea of resolving internal conflict, and proceeding with a deep peace and acceptance, without knowing what the outcome of the action will necessarily be. Without attachment to the outcome. As opposed to proceeding from a split self, where one part of me wants to do one thing, and another part of me wants to do the opposite - if I choose one of the other, there will be a sense of sacrifice, self-betrayal, and forcing the issue. This is perhaps the kind of effort that is absent in wu wei.

If someone presents you with a slice of hot cheesy pizza with deliciously crispy crust… it’s up to you whether to eat it. If you feel conflicted about whether to do so, it could be good to pause and consult what is going on inside, let the conflict resolve through your inner wisdom (no formula for these things), and then take your action - whether you eat the pizza or not, you will not have qualms about it, and it will feel effortless.


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All communication
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and rhythm

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29311623 -

Is that how you experience the world?

As an aside, if deliciousness was in the pizza, the more you ate the more deliciousness you would have. But what happens if you eat and don't stop eating? Does it get more and more delicious?

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29311647 -

I think the Romans would induce vomiting periodically to preserve the deliciousness...  likely with diminishing returns?

Probably best to take it one slice at a time!


Yes, that is how I have been experiencing the world. Internal conflict, followed by deep soul searching, then resolution, then peace and wu wei.


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All communication
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and rhythm

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Blue Cthulhu] * 1
    #29311737 -

We perceive time sequentially, not necessarily linear.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29311766 -

Kickle said:
What effect are you finding for yourself?


With regard to why I wanted to find similarity among teachings and confirmation?

To me, as truth must be one, then I seek to syncretize paths, primarily in experience, and verbally. It has deep significance to me in that I have respect and affinity for teachings, teachers, that I have studied and contemplated, that may express conflicting views.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29311771 -

Blue Cthulhu said:
I think the Romans would induce vomiting periodically to preserve the deliciousness...  likely with diminishing returns?


What a clear example of blatantly making yourself sick thinking it's a good thing.

Quote:
Yes, that is how I have been experiencing the world. Internal conflict, followed by deep soul searching, then resolution, then peace and wu wei.


I think most of us get tired of beating our heads against the wall of reality from time to time. At least that's what my inner conflicts tend to be. Reality is this way, I want it to be that way. Thud.

Letting reality be as it is, that's how I'm hearing your description of wu wei.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: syncro]
    #29311773 -

syncro said:
Kickle said:
What effect are you finding for yourself?


With regard to why I wanted to find similarity among teachings and confirmation?

To me, as truth must be one, then I seek to syncretize paths, primarily in experience, and verbally. It has deep significance to me in that I have respect and affinity for teachings, teachers, that I have studied and contemplated, that may express conflicting views.


What leads you to think things converge? What do you see that suggests this to you?

A teacher says you either go to heaven or go to hell - forever. Do you hear convergence?

I know you didn't reference this kind of teaching. But it exists. And I'm guessing you've heard it before. Do you bring such a teaching or teacher into your mind as a confirmation of convergence?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: syncro]
    #29311789 -

"A teacher says you either go to heaven or go to hell - forever. Do you hear convergence?"

There are some things that are not worth entertaining, and there are some statements made even by apparent adepts and I know by experience that they are mistaken, clearly to me in that they did not pursue in practice that which they criticize.

"What leads you to think things converge? What do you see that suggests this to you?"

All paths that are sane teach essentially the same ethics most simply stated in the golden rule. All paths are received and practiced, by those who do, human individuals, and we are the same at the core; we want the same thing, freedom, joy, ... Our anatomies and elements are the same, our bodies made from the one earth.

Dukkha is universal, all the same in that to varying degree. Therefore, the essence of its ceasing must also be one and universal. Working backward paths converge to the first noble truth. Then it seems to me, all must converge in the end aim - happiness of many names.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: syncro]
    #29311935 -

Those who speak of an eternal heaven or hell also speak of ethical conduct and suffering. Eden, snakes, and so on. They've learned what that means from others and are attempting to live accordingly. And I don't doubt they want happiness.

Why don't they arrive at the same conclusion as you if the only outcome from these things is to converge?

You think your convergence is sane and theirs isn't?

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29312019 -

Kickle said:
I think most of us get tired of beating our heads against the wall of reality from time to time. At least that's what my inner conflicts tend to be. Reality is this way, I want it to be that way. Thud.

Letting reality be as it is, that's how I'm hearing your description of wu wei.


Right on! Yes I think “letting reality be as it is” is the true path, a way of cutting through all the complexities and opening to the higher Peace which transcends dualities.


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All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

Edited by Blue Cthulhu (08/13/25 08:32 AM)

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29312288 -

Kickle said:
Those who speak of an eternal heaven or hell also speak of ethical conduct and suffering. Eden, snakes, and so on. They've learned what that means from others and are attempting to live accordingly. And I don't doubt they want happiness.

Why don't they arrive at the same conclusion as you if the only outcome from these things is to converge?

You think your convergence is sane and theirs isn't?


It would make for quite a failed plan that aims to remove dukkha. Would God or Bodhisattva be only partly successful, for the former, with their own creations, their own children? It shows a failed God, and is neither sane, logical, or consistent.

Is partial success success at all? Why is there spontaneous, universal compassion? Because no one is not a Buddha, or a creation of God. So this would be God condemning Himself to eternal torment.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: syncro]
    #29312339 -

Well it can be difficult to apply logic beyond one's own thinking. Who thinks they are illogical? We work with what we have available to be logical with.

The Buddha for example is not a creator. So his success/failure does not depend on his creations. That may seem illogical if one thinks of the Buddha as a creator. But for Buddhists, his success as a teacher depends on the validity of his teachings. Of which each student is responsible for investigating and practicing. The Buddha cannot do the investigating or practicing for another.

A math teacher who can do a math problem doesn't mean their student somehow now magically can. But the teacher will do their best to pass the skill along. And if the student wants to learn and work at it, it's likely they can develop some skill as well.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29312595 -

There's a story of a yogi steeped in use of Shiva's name. He passes from the body, and a messenger comes to take him to the Lord's abode, but he says first he wants to see hell. Upon sight of the misery, he exclaims, Om Namah Shivaya! All the souls there were cleansed and freed.

So given, we hold to the convergence.

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Re: Time isn't fundamental to reality [Re: Kickle]
    #29313045 -

Kickle said:
Well I find it strange to make this 'soup' of different ideologies.


syncro is syncretic


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All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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