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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn.
    #29063160 -

What part of this toad should I cut to add to agar? Is that considered cloning?
This little one can I add that straight to agar?

Very small harvest just this one from a brf cake should dunk for a day or since it was only.5g of fresh just put brf cake back in tub?

Cloned abort and internal stem to agar and stem to 1/2 pint of wbs to see what we can get from this.

Edited by Urimpulsivemind (12/21/24 09:59 AM)

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Re: Accidentally grew this from a brf cake what should I do with both? Identify? [Re: Urimpulsivemind] * 1
    #29063161 -



Actually I’m more confused i thought these were magic but aren’t these gills or inner veil supposed to be purple(ish) what are these?

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Re: Accidentally grew this from a brf cake what should I do with both? Identify? [Re: Urimpulsivemind]
    #29063162 -

I can see blue-ing on the stipe so it should definitely be what you think it is. I don't think there's any surefire guarantee you'd get that color gills each time or summing


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Endlessly endorsing empathy empirically energizing existence™

~Always practice radical kindness~
R.I.P. Betty Boop, greatest mother to ever do it.

Edited by QuantumZ00 (12/21/24 07:52 AM)

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: Urimpulsivemind]
    #29063225 -



Very small harvest just this one from a brf cake should dunk for a day or since it was only.5g of fresh just put brf cake back in tub?

Cloned abort and internal stem to agar and stem to 1/2 pint of wbs to see what we can get from this

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: Urimpulsivemind]
    #29063231 -

I would dunk it certainly but I've also only grown two pf tek cycles so I'm still relatively new to that method. I started with bins and went backwards because they were so cool :p


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Endlessly endorsing empathy empirically energizing existence™

~Always practice radical kindness~
R.I.P. Betty Boop, greatest mother to ever do it.

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: QuantumZ00]
    #29063405 -

To clone that, or any shroom, I flame a knife, and then cut a tiny bit out from inside the base of the stipe (grain of rice or smaller) and drop that on agar.  That's all you need to do.  It will turn dark and look gross for a couple days, and then should turn white again and grow. 

If the culture takes, you now have a culture that is all one single genetic individual.  They was a question above about whether this would have the same gill color.  It should, because it's exactly the same genetic individual.  However, growing conditions can significantly affect color and shape.


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Sadly remembering when the Shroomery wasn't a closed minded mutual admiration society for OCD cargo cultists.  RIP methodical science.

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: OldManRiver] * 1
    #29063515 -

Not true about a single genetic individual. Even tissue samples (I.e. “clones”) can and most likely do contain many genetic lines. Mushrooms are weird and fuck weird too.

:raveface:

Edited by phytophthora (12/21/24 03:54 PM)

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: phytophthora]
    #29064075 -

After taking said clone should you take spores or clone again from the next batch? Just now getting into cloning and such and find it incredibly captivating. Not trying to derail said thread but just educating myself. Haven't been able to find a post that states it clearly enough for me. From what I've gathered you want to clone an example you find intriguing for any reason, agar to clean, spawn, take spores, agar, clone the trait you want and repeat. To summarize clone>grow>spore>grow>clone and repeat. This is how people also get canopies, the clones and resulting children are more adapted to their environment?


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15 year lurker

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: phytophthora]
    #29064255 -

phytophthora said:
Not true about a single genetic individual. Even tissue samples (I.e. “clones”) can and most likely do contain many genetic lines. Mushrooms are weird and fuck weird too.

:raveface:


How do multiple dikaryons cooperate to create a fruit?  That's what it would take for the fruit to have multiple lines. 

I think you are confusing the variability of genetics in the spores of a fruit with the genetic characteristics of the fruit. 

Here is one discussion on this.  https://midnightmushroomco.com/blogs/myco-blog/fungi-reproduction-how-a-mushroom-is-born#:~:text=The%20main%20takeaway%20is%20that,only%20made%20of%20that%20mycelium.


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Sadly remembering when the Shroomery wasn't a closed minded mutual admiration society for OCD cargo cultists.  RIP methodical science.

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: OldManRiver]
    #29064317 -

Not totally confused. Indeed I am saying that a single fruit can contain multiple dikaryons,as well as di-mon pairings. Can’t find the thread where a guy a few years ago burned through hundreds and hundreds of plates trying to isolate a genetic and he eventually gave up because it just continued sectoring. But there is plenty about this scattered around, like this

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: phytophthora] * 1
    #29064360 -

phytophthora said:
Not totally confused. Indeed I am saying that a single fruit can contain multiple dikaryons,as well as di-mon pairings. Can’t find the thread where a guy a few years ago burned through hundreds and hundreds of plates trying to isolate a genetic and he eventually gave up because it just continued sectoring. But there is plenty about this scattered around, like this


I see a lot of opinions there, but nothing anchored in biology. There are so many contradictions in the multiple individual theory.  For example, if there are multiple dikaryons in a single fruit, what mediates which individual makes which spore? 

I could be wrong, and will happily change my tune if incorrect, but I have yet to encounter any evidence which supports the multiple gene lines in a single fruit theory that seems scientifically  based.  I have searched fairly extensively on the web, and the more credible sources I encounter disagree with you.

I'm not invested in my position being correct here, I want to know the true answer.  I'll do some more research this afternoon, and see if I can find more definitive sources.

Edit:  This is a very interesting discussion.  It appears that the answer isn't black or white, it's shades of grey. https://www.mykoweb.com/articles/GeneticIndividualsMosaics.html. The observation is made that this was seen in Amarilla species, and is labeled as being different from other fungi.

"Interestingly, the life cycle of Armillaria species are quite different from the typical cycle described above. In Armillaria the haploid nuclei present in newly produced secondary mycelium quickly fuse, forming diploid nuclei. Unlike other mushroom species, in which the individual cells are typically thought to be dikaryotic (i.e. contain two genetically distinct haploid nuclei) throughout most stages of the life cycle, the somatic cells of Armillaria appear to each contain a single diploid nucleus. The mycelium of Armillaria, and presumably the mushrooms it produces, therefore lack the extended dikaryotic stage believed to be characteristic of most higher fungi."

If we conclude that psilocybe species are in that group of "most higher fungi", then that source supports the assertion that a cloned fruit has a single genome. 

I know this fellow personally, he states in fairly detailed terms in this article that a fruit comes from a single colony formed from a single dikaryon.  https://midnightmushroomco.com/blogs/myco-blog/fungi-reproduction-how-a-mushroom-is-born. In particular:

"5a - An example of what does not happen. Two dikaryons, two strains, will not work together to produce a fruitbody, no matter how many of them are present and overlapping. It is hard enough for a single colony to coordinate with itself to produce such a complex structure, let alone for two unrelated colonies (who want each other dead) to work together and make it happen. This is not even really up for debate, it is just a basic fact of fungal biology. Some oddballs like Armillaria have segregate tissues made up of haploid, dikaryotic, and diploid mycelia, but the vast majority of agaricoid species (including Psilocybe) have homogenous tissue, each cell being identical (except for the basidia, which are briefly diploid, and the spores, which are haploid)."

I await sources that contradict these observations.  In the meantime, all the evidence I can find indicates that our clones are indeed genetically individual. 


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Sadly remembering when the Shroomery wasn't a closed minded mutual admiration society for OCD cargo cultists.  RIP methodical science.

Edited by OldManRiver (12/22/24 05:14 PM)

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: OldManRiver] * 1
    #29064491 -

I’m just saying that two or more dikaryotes can symphogenously form a single fruit. Maybe I’m wrong. :justdontknow:

Edited by phytophthora (12/22/24 06:27 PM)

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: phytophthora] * 3
    #29064510 -

couple things related to what you guys are talking about

Tissue Formation By David Moore Chapter 21, pp. 423-465, in The Growing Fungus (1994)
https://www.davidmoore.org.uk/Assets/Printed_documents/my_reprints/1995_Moore_Tissue_Formation_chapter.pdf


Genotyping, gene genealogies and genomics bring fungal population genetics above ground - James B. Anderson and Linda M. Kohn
https://www.davidmoore.org.uk/21st_Century_Guidebook_to_Fungi_PLATINUM/REPRINT_collection/Anderson_Kohn_pop_genetics.pdf


Interactions of Heterologous Mycelia Colonized in the Substrate Govern Fruit Body Production in the Cultivated Homobasidiomycete Pholiota nameko (chimera/mycelial aggregates)
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.67.100



From dikaryon to diploid
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S174946131500038X


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∴Genetics Info∴Ps. ovoideocystidiata and Native Americans∴

∴The Official Woodlovers Thread∴Outdoor Mushroom Cultivation∴

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: catnip40] * 1
    #29064563 -

Interesting. :strokebeard:

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: phytophthora] * 1
    #29064654 -

I think the current summary is three studies that observe combination of dikaryotic mycelia in non psilocybe species, two of which are on amarilla, with the comment by the researcher that this is unusual, and one by a researcher whom I can assure you is hands on with psilocybe mushrooms, who specifically notes that psilocybe species do not exhibit this. 

The excerpt that observed this in the Pholiota species noted that the decendents exhibited variation in their characteristics, similar to sexual propagation.  They also describe this blending as "occasional". Now, of the clones that you have taken of cubes, how many have exhibited variability in phenotype? I have only worked with about ten or so clone cultures to this point, but the answer to that for me is zero. 

This hardly makes the answer to the question a settled matter, but it looks to me like the weight of the evidence is that a clone of a mushroom is almost always a single genome, EXCEPT for certain species and certain exceptional conditions. Even then, it appears to be a rare exception, rather than the rule.

My conclusion, supported now by my opponents' sources as well as my own, is that we can treat cubensis clones as single individuals, with possible rare exceptions that no-one is presenting more than anecdotal evidence of.


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Sadly remembering when the Shroomery wasn't a closed minded mutual admiration society for OCD cargo cultists.  RIP methodical science.

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: OldManRiver] * 1
    #29064672 -

No one here is an opponent.

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: phytophthora]
    #29064736 -

phytophthora said:
No one here is an opponent.


I mean that of course only in the holding of opposing positions/beliefs.  If evidence appears that shows my current belief to be incorrect, I change that belief appropriately.  In my life, I have not found that to be a common practice around me.


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Sadly remembering when the Shroomery wasn't a closed minded mutual admiration society for OCD cargo cultists.  RIP methodical science.

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Re: Ksss squat toad spaceship harvest to clone to spawn. [Re: OldManRiver] * 1
    #29114267 -

Genetical evidence supporting the multicellular origin of fruiting body formation in the basidiomycete, Lentinula edodes.


Mitochondrial inheritance in basidiomycete fungi


Populations and Individuals in Heterokaryotic Fungi: A Multilevel Perspective


Patterns of mating and mitochondrial DNA inheritance in the agaric Basidiomycete Coprinus cinereus



Edited by catnip40 (02/06/25 02:24 AM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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