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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2789159 -

I've yet to meet a Liberal who didn't want to run everyone else's life.

Odd, because there isn't a liberal on this board who wants to run anybodys life.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2789168 -

Quote:
... All of my wealth has been obtained through providing products or services to those who are willing to pay for them. Same with my parents. Same with all my siblings and all my neighbors who I have ever known.



That is correct for most small enterpreneurs, you don't have means to influence politics and you can't fuck people that live close to you. You'll think 10 times before you fire someone who works for you - after all it's likely that you'll meet him in the bar few hours later while large corporations fire thousands that work on the other side of the world in a matter of seconds if they only find out that it will increase their profits.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789183 -

So forcefully taking my money (which includes my time and work) and giving it to others doesn't in any way take away from my ability to run my own life?


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2789230 -

The person who wrote this article certainly seems to think so.

You posted the article, did you post it because it reflected your own feelings?

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: z@z.com]
    #2789435 -

So forcefully taking my money (which includes my time and work) and giving it to others doesn't in any way take away from my ability to run my own life?

No more than the corporation down the street building a factory and belching fumes in the atmosphere affects the right to live my life.

Do you drive? If you are driving a car you are forcefully making other people breathe your pollution. Arn't you taking away their ability to run their own lives? What if their kid has asthma?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Xlea321]
    #2789942 -

Alex123 said:
No more than the corporation down the street building a factory and belching fumes in the atmosphere affects the right to live my life.

Do you drive? If you are driving a car you are forcefully making other people breathe your pollution. Arn't you taking away their ability to run their own lives? What if their kid has asthma?



Seriously weak. Who owns the air? I think it falls under public and if you don't want to breathe public air you can go buy your own.

Quite different than taking hard earned money from someone.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2790358 -

Auto-Summary
The Federal Reserve, established in 1913, has manipulated the money supply, leading to monetary inflation and decreased relative worth of currency, ultimately driving up prices. The author argues that wealth creation is not a zero-sum game and that most people do not attempt to prevent others from gaining wealth, but rather create an artificial aristocracy to enjoy a superior standard of living without superior merit. The author also criticizes the short-sightedness of some libertarians and believes that businesses should prioritize customer satisfaction over short-term gains. The author shares their extensive skills and experience in various fields, including computers, cars, electronics, art, writing, music, carpentry, masonry, metal smithing, home repair, office software, physics, economics, psychology, neuroscience, and history. They argue that the American corporate culture values ego over merit and that people often make cognitive errors in the workplace. The author believes that negotiation is not possible between those of unequal power, particularly in the context of employment, and that the state acts on behalf of the people.

Quote:
The Federal Reserve has been in existence since 1913. The money supply has been manipulated by the entity ever since. As the currency in circulation increases (monetary inflation), it's relative worth decreases, driving up prices. This was occurring at the hands of the Fed before most people were even born.





Just because your generation didn't invent the system, doesnt mean you havent been using it.  Who spent all that money?  Who allowed the politicians to run up this debt?  I can safely say I had nothing to do with it.  I just gained the right to vote 5 years ago. 

Quote:
Wealth creation is not a zero sum game.





this seems to be the new favorite piece of rhetoric among libertarians on this board.  Whenever you get backed into a corner, you always recite that dogma.  Perhaps you could explain to me what it means.

Quote:
Most people never attempt any such thing. What would be the purpose of a person attempting to prevent others from gaining wealth?




To create an artificial aristocracy so they can enjoy a standard of living superior to everyone else's without having superior merit. 

Quote:
However, you have a very ignorant view of business if you think it is about screwing the next generation. Businesses rely on customers, screw your customers and you will suffer in the long run. Most businesses do no operate this way, they want to stay in business.





You are very ignorant about human psychology if you think that people aren't that short sighted.  Most libertarians I talk to don't give a fuck about what happens to this planet or the human race unless it effects them personally.  Why would they care what happens in the future if they aren't going to be here? 

Quote:
Maybe $8 an hour is all your worth. Despite what your ego tells you, employers are a much better judge of the value of your services. 




:lol:  No employer I've ever had even came close to putting my skills to use.  My knowledge and intelligence are more of a liability than an asset in the workplace.  Why?  Because people get threatened by those who are more intelligent or more skilled than them.  The boss's ego often times gets in the way of productivity.  This is how its been at every single place I've worked.  Why else would they fire me if my numbers are the highest and customers ask for me by name?  I've even had managers straight up tell me:  'I want to promote you, you are by far the most qualified, but my boss doesn't like you, so you're fired'

Not to mention the fact that 90% of my education is autodiadactic.  I fix my own cars and my own computers.  I read for fun.  But I don't have certifications, or any kind of experience on record.  I can do these jobs, but I can't get these jobs.  That would require an inside connection.  Jobs dont go to the most qualified, they go to the boss's friends and relatives.  Failing that, they go to the best dressed.  Such is human nature.  People use inaccurate predictors and jump to faulty conclusions.  All the time. 

Quote:
Employers can't afford to hire people without expecting a return of their investment. 




Of course.  But they tend to place their confidence in the wrong people.  Again, its the documented cognitive mistakes that people tend to make.

Quote:
If they do, they are idiots, and will soon be out of business.





...and this is a good thing because...?  When an idiot goes out of business, it will probably negatively effect people who aren't idiots and don't derserve it.  I've worked at a couple places that ended up going out of business because the boss thought he knew better than his employees, or because the boss put too much faith in the wrong employee.  Just a couple morons in positions of power can cost literally hundreds of people their jobs, or even their 401k's. 

Quote:
What the hell kind of skills do you have and what industries have you worked in?




you got a few minutes? :smile:

I was building and programming computers back when most adults didn't even know how to turn a computer on.  I was making webpages back in '95 at age 15, when the only html editor was notepad. 

I can fix any problem on any car as long as I have the manual. 

I'm fully trained in all office software such as access, spreadsheet and word.  After years of using complicated programs like 3DStudio Max, photoshop, and Logic, most office software is like a children's toy to me.  I've yet to encounter a software program that I could not master in a very short amount of time.  I've spent hours helping bosses twice my age and half my intelligence figure out how to use MSOffice. 

I can solder and build electronics.  I was building electric guitars at age 16.  I've wired many home theaters and many car stereos.  I've rewired electronic appliances to alter their function. 

I am an artist, writer, and musician.  I have studied art history and music theory. 

I can also do carpentry, masonry, metal smithing, ac/heater repair, or any other kind of home repair for that matter.  (hmmm, well, actually I've never done foundation work)

I cut my own hair.  I cook my own meals.  having worked at a health food store for 3 years, I am well-educated in nutrition, including supplements and vitamins. 

I'm good with people, as long as I take my herbal supplements :wink:  I have completed all the requirements for my ba in psych and am currently working on my masters in nueroscience via the fast track program offered by my university. 

I have a good understanding of the scientific method, and have applied for many research assistant positions at my university.  Unfortunately, these positions usually tend to go to the student that kisses the most ass, whether they are qualified or not. 

I'm good with numbers, and have studied physics as a hobby.  I got an A in both micro- and macro- economics and I didn't even buy the textbook or show up to class very often. 

I am well read and have studied all world religions.  I have studied history and politics.  I am familiar with the culture and social customs of many peoples. 

I've never been given a mangerial position, but whenever I have to do a group project for school, I have always been elected group leader, and everyone asks me what to do.  I usually end up having to coordinate the whole thing and do most of the work.  So you could say I have experience with people under me, although the only reason people would work under me is for their own self-interst and laziness in scholarly persuits.  If any real power and money were involved, they would take the leadership position for themselves and make me do shit work. 

The american corporate culture values ego over merit.  Its as simple as that.  Its really not even a corporate problem, its a human problem.  People have extremely poor judgement when it comes to social matters.  Psychological and sociological factors effect the workplace and influence people to make extremely bad decisions.  Go to your local university library and search their research databases if you don't believe me.  Its all been documented via controlled experimentation. 

Quote:
Well, when you run a business, you will be in a position to make that judgement.





I've been in business for years.  Right now I work for no one. 

Quote:
The employer and employee mutually decide upon the job, both are free to negotiate compensation or to decline to enter into an agreement of employment.





how can you say that the employee isn't under duress when he needs income to survive?  You cant just say 'fuck your terms' and walk out when you have mouths to feed and bills to pay.  Many people take shitty jobs because nothing else is available to them and they don't want to starve.  Personal standards are meaningless unless others back you up on them in solidarity.  A person with standards cannot compete with the millions of workers who are willing to sell themselves short to continue their meaningless existence. 

negotiation my ass.  For a lot of people, its either do shit work for shit pay or starve.  How the hell am I, one person, going to 'negotiate' with a huge corporate infrastucture?  there can only be negotiation among those of equal power. 

Quote:
This is not something that is undertaken by investors, but by the state.





the state is acting on behalf of the people.  people allow the state to do these things. 

Quote:
I submit to you that if this is the case, then they could get such jobs




thats just naive.  In the real world, being able to do a job doesnt mean being able to get that job.  And sadly, not being able to do a job doesnt mean not being able to get that job. 

I applied for a job at this gas station once.  I didn't get it, but they gave the job to this idiot foriegner that didn't even know how to operate the register or the lottery ticket machine.  I have had to go behind the counter and help him with it numerous times, just because I was sick of waiting in line for him to figure it out himself.  Why did that dude get the job instead of me?  I was willing to work for the same amount of pay, despite the fact that I was obviously overqualified.  He probably got the job because he knew someone I didn't :nonono:

Quote:
Your assessment of other's marketable skill sets are not born of knowledge of being an employer, but of someone who makes arm chair pronouncements about that which he is not in a position to offer an informed opinion of.





thats quite an assumption you've made about me. 

Quote:
Again, sour grapes. How many businesses have your run? How many payrolls have you had to meet? How many employees have you had to fire because they weren't being productive or conscientious or were alienating customers? How many businesses have you consulted for?





I've never been given the opportunity to run a legal business.  But I've seen it done by others, quite poorly, despite my many objections.  Whenever I work at places I always make it my first order of business to get all the numbers; what stuff costs, what the profit margin is, what the overhead is.  I consistently see profit margins which are not proportionate to worker pay, and I consistently see idiots who dont deserve their position make aweful decisions that negatively effect everyone.  I've worked for several different companies and every one of them has been that way. 

Quote:
News flash: human psychology affects the bottom line. This is why employers look for people who can work well with others, will be presentable to customers, and will be reliable at their jobs.





you really are quite patronizing.  I am well aware of these things.  I was not refering to them. 

I was refering to the human tendancy to make cognitive errors, and the tendancy for ego and limited perspective to get in the way of productivity.  Which it does, consistently, in every place I have ever worked. 

Quote:
The actions of my generation? Are you attempting to lamely put the blame on me by association of age?




I didnt know how old you were.  don't be so touchy.  I was using a hypothetical 'you' (just like you did in the example I quoted).  Seems to me you might be feeling a little guilty, since this is obviously a sensitive area to you.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2790988 -

Baby_Hitler writes:

The person who wrote this article certainly seems to think so.

Seems to think what? That being wealthy automatically grants sainthood? I certainly didn't get that from reading the article. Which parts of it led you to believe that was his position?

You posted the article, did you post it because it reflected your own feelings?

Sure did.

If you do nothing but hold down a slacker job your entire life, who have you helped? But if you increase the wealth of your employer enabling his business to expand to the point where he hires more employees, have you not helped more people? If you get to the point where you run your own business, employing several others (as I have) how many have you helped?

I didn't start my businesses here in the Dominican Republic in order to help unemployed Dominicans get ahead in life, I started the businesses to make money for myself. Yet in the process I helped unemployed Dominicans get ahead in life. Quite a few of them, as a matter of fact. Does that mean I qualify for sainthood? Nope. But it does mean I did more good for them than some Liberal college student mushbrain in New Jersey whining about "sweatshops" in developing countries ever will.

pinky


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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791012 -

DoctorJ writes:

this seems to be the new favorite piece of rhetoric among libertarians on this board. Whenever you get backed into a corner, you always recite that dogma. Perhaps you could explain to me what it means.

It has been explained in this forum countless times before. I know for a fact it has been explained in threads you have participated. But here it is again for the benefit of new folks reading this thread.

There is not a static quantity of wealth in existence, it is an ever-increasing quantity. Wealth is produced by human effort. Before wealth can be looted (oops! excuse me -- let me use the politically correct term instead; "redistributed") it must first be produced. Lefties seem to believe that in order for someone to prosper, someone else must suffer correspondingly. This is patently false. I can produce enough through my own effort to lead a prosperous life without taking a single thing from anyone else. The fact that I earned enough to drink a bottle of champagne every day doesn't mean that I have somehow prevented a goatherd in Somalia from building a new hut for himself. The fact that I drive a Mercedes doesn't prevent you from driving a Ferrarri.

It's not as if the wealth of the world is a giant pizza and if I eat two slices someone else is stuck munching on the box.

pinky


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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2791069 -

Quote:
There is not a static quantity of wealth in existence, it is an ever-increasing quantity. Wealth is produced by human effort. Before wealth can be looted (oops! excuse me -- let me use the politically correct term instead; "redistributed") it must first be produced. Lefties seem to believe that in order for someone to prosper, someone else must suffer correspondingly. This is patently false. I can produce enough through my own effort to lead a prosperous life without taking a single thing from anyone else. The fact that I earned enough to drink a bottle of champagne every day doesn't mean that I have somehow prevented a goatherd in Somalia from building a new hut for himself. The fact that I drive a Mercedes doesn't prevent you from driving a Ferrarri.

It's not as if the wealth of the world is a giant pizza and if I eat two slices someone else is stuck munching on the box.




just because the quantity of wealth is increasing now does not mean that the same methods will cause it to keep increasing in the future. Bubbles can and will burst.

what are the ingredients of wealth? I would say, resources and human productive effort. Neither of which is infinite. How can something which is supposedly infinite be composed of finite ingredients?

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2791071 -

The author clearly stated that making lots of money is morally superior to being a social worker.

The author left no room for confusion: being wealthy automatically grants moral superiority.

Edited by Baby_Hitler (06/13/04 11:48 PM)

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2791211 -

Where did he state that? I re-read it again, twice, and I still don't see that part. The closest part I can find is where he says:

"Heck, you probably would be helping others--only not nearly as much as you could by getting rich."

pinky


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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791258 -

DoctorJ writes:

just because the quantity of wealth is increasing now does not mean that the same methods will cause it to keep increasing in the future. Bubbles can and will burst.

And eventually a day will come when the sun won't rise in the morning either. What's your point?

The fact of the matter is that there is more wealth in existence today than there was a year ago. A year ago there was more wealth in existence than there was ten years ago. Ten years ago there was more wealth in existence than there was a century ago. A century ago there was more wealth in existence tan there was a millenium ago, etc. The amount of wealth in existence will cease to increase when:

a) resources required to produce that wealth run out, or
b) the number of humans willing to expend the effort to produce wealth decrease, or
c) a combination of a) and b)

what are the ingredients of wealth? I would say, resources and human productive effort. Neither of which is infinite. How can something which is supposedly infinite be composed of finite ingredients?

Who here has ever said the amount of wealth is infinite?

But seeing as how we are nowhere near running out of either resources or productive human effort, the truth of Evolving's statement holds: the creation of wealth is not a zero-sum game. It remains a possibility that at some point way down the road, if everyone decides to stop creating more either out of laziness or out of a lack of available resources, there may come a time when all that is left to do is to steal what wealth is then in existence from each other. But that is far from being the case today.

pinky


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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2791295 -

Quote:
Most stockholders are average shmoes who have their retirement money invested, hoping to live comfortably in their golden years.



This is, fundamentally, a wrong fact -- a red herring.

Yes, numerically, most stockholders are people like you say. But most stock is not held by them. The great majority of stock in a company tends to be held by a very few parties with a controlling interest. So, for every dollar of dividends produced, 30 cents might go to one man, another 40 to maybe ten more entities, and then the remainder to everyone else. A very few people make a great deal of money, but the 'average stockholder' gets something like a few hundredths of a percent of a cent.


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"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791315 -

how can you say that the employee isn't under duress when he needs income to survive? You cant just say 'fuck your terms' and walk out when you have mouths to feed and bills to pay.

THANK YOU! Fucking thank you! This is something that NO evangelistic libertarian seems to understand!


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"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791340 -

DoctorJ writes:

how can you say that the employee isn't under duress when he needs income to survive?

Newsflash -- the employer needs income to survive as well. If he has a decent grasp of how his business runs (and it is a fact that some do not) then he knows pretty accurately how much he can afford to pay someone to perform a particular function of that business for him. If he can't find someone who can perform that function at the price he calculates he can pay, he does without. Simple.

You cant just say 'fuck your terms' and walk out when you have mouths to feed and bills to pay.

What's your point?

Many people take shitty jobs because nothing else is available to them and they don't want to starve.

Correct. I've done that myself. Perhaps I may be in a position some day when I do so again. What's your point?

In what way is it the fault of the person offering a less-than-perfect job to an applicant that the applicant doesn't have the required attributes to acquire the perfect job?

pinky


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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Sev]
    #2791369 -

Sev said:
Quote:
Most stockholders are average shmoes who have their retirement money invested, hoping to live comfortably in their golden years.



This is, fundamentally, a wrong fact -- a red herring.

Yes, numerically, most stockholders are people like you say. But most stock is not held by them. The great majority of stock in a company tends to be held by a very few parties with a controlling interest. So, for every dollar of dividends produced, 30 cents might go to one man, another 40 to maybe ten more entities, and then the remainder to everyone else. A very few people make a great deal of money, but the 'average stockholder' gets something like a few hundredths of a percent of a cent.



And how does this change the fact that many of these people have their life savings invested?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2791386 -

What exactly is the point of this article?

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2791425 -

Quote:
  You cant just say 'fuck your terms' and walk out when you have mouths to feed and bills to pay.

What's your point?






my point is that no work is really voluntary.  I mean, no one, employer or employee, really wants to work.  If people could survive by doing nothing but snorting coke and fucking hookers, then they would.  People don't work because they want to, they work because they have to in order to survive.  You could say that their own high maintenance bodies have initiated force against them, forcing them to work :smile: 

remember the old story of Tom and Huck and the whitewashed fence?  Accodring to mark twain, work is defined as anything you don't want to do but have to.  I can agree with that, from a psychological perspective (yes I know physicists and economists define 'work' differently). 

but really, despite whatever ideological illusions you may hold dear, most employment is not voluntary at all. 

Quote:
In what way is it the fault of the person offering a less-than-perfect job to an applicant that the applicant doesn't have the required attributes to acquire the perfect job?





no.  that wasn't what I was implying. 

the perfect job is the job that the applicant is most capable of, preferably one that utilizes his capabilities to the fullest but does not overtax him physically or mentally.  As I said earlier, no employment is fully voluntary, but the applicant should have his pick of the jobs he is best qualified for, assuming that those positions are being offered because they are in demand.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2791456 -

Thanks Doctor, your posts on this page are probably the most intelligent and insightful comments I've seen at the board in the last 12 months.

:rockon:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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