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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: qman]
    #26146785 -

"Failures of Christianity- Miracles Come Again"


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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: qman]
    #26146839 -

"Faith is all you need?"


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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: qman]
    #26146862 -

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It will always and forever be a battle with none believers all you can do is plant a seed when it's there time and God calls for them then they will come but for now there's only so much you can say. But your words will stick because one day when they are called on and begin to beg for salvation and repentance for living by the flesh and not for the spirit. They will remember your words.  is

walk your walk now saved7 stay faithfull because times will come when the fire burns out, but I pray your fire burns on strong. Pray for me too man for my struggles  expell the lustsand  the desires of my heart to be only for my wife and  family and work .
Stay strong in your faith God bless you all

Edited by AtheTruth (08/21/19 07:50 PM)

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: qman]
    #26147525 -

qman said:
"laws of nature are powerful evidence for a supernatural creator"    No, nature is NOT evidence for anything supernatural, let alone a creator.


The implications are clear.

The same way we know an organizing mind was behind a written novel, or a computer program, we can rationally assume an organizing mind behind this natural system we call the universe.

All physical interactions proceed within the bounds given them by a law-giver.  At the root of all nature is the Word, the law, the information, that commands it.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1

There is no more concise description of what lies at the foundation of all existence than the super-natural WORD, the law governing all things in the universe, as above so below.

On the other hand...

The atheistic/materialist belief that the laws of nature wrote themselves is completely irrational.  The idea that nature gave itself the information by which nature itself is governed is completely absurd.  You can't even begin to form an argument for it because it is such a self-defeating position.

The materialist worldview debunks itself.  It hardly needs any help from me.

I will repeat the message of Romans 1:20
Physical reality itself is such an obvious testament to the Creator that you will have no excuse for denying the existence of God.

If you deny God it's because of something in your heart, and not for a lack of reasonable evidence.


qman said:
"no evidence will ever be good enough"  For the claim you're attempting to prove, that's very likely the case. What does that tell you about your assertion? 

"This is written about extensively in the Old Testament"    Why should we care about what's written in a book?


You asked why God isn't showing himself, remember?

The Old Testament explains a lot about humanity's relationship with God  and the condition of the human heart.

As much as the atheistic/agnostic likes to roleplay as objective evidence-gathering machines... the truth is that people ultimately care little about evidence.  People are primarily concerned about following their lusts - sex, money, status, pleasure, glorification of ourselves. 

God could manifest before the entire world right now, and within hours we'd be diving back into pornography, or whatever thoughts or activity serves our lusts.  Honestly, after the miracle has passed, how long would you last before your gaze falls from the heavens and returns to the things of the flesh below?

In our fallen states we always choose ourselves over God. All the evidence in the world is no match for the condition of our heart.  And that's what God is after, our hearts.  That's the entire narrative of the Bible.

That's why we need Jesus.  When you accept Jesus, you leave your old self dead at the foot of the cross where He bled and died for us.  You are no longer enslaved to your lusts and are given a new heart that continually thirsts after the knowledge and wisdom of God.


qman said:
"we become reconnected to God"  That's just based on faith, not evidence.

"Only that faith can bring us back to God"   

Faith is NOT a reliable method to find truth.


Again, despite your presentation, I don't believe for a second that your pimary motivator is evidence.  In fact, I think in your heart you are running as fast as you can away from the evidence, even your own conscience which may convict you of the truth.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

Faith is not the blind caricature you'd like it to be.  Quite the opposite. Without faith, you are forever stumbling around in the dark, blindly following the flesh.  Faith is an understanding of reality that far surpasses anything we might cobble together with the wisdom of men.


qman said:
Let me ask you, do you even care what you believe is true or not?


If I didn't believe Jesus Christ was the truth with all my heart, I would not be here.  As I testified to in the OP, Jesus changed my entire life in an instant.

I extend the message to you once more and then I will move on.  Stop pretending that you're just after evidence.  This is all about your heart, which appears to harbor a lot animosity towards God.  About what, I do not know. That's between you and Him.

But no matter what you did, no matter how trapped you might feel, God loves you and will forgive you and save you if you want Him to... if you will only surrender your heart and accept Jesus Christ.  You can do it right now.  Call out to Him! 

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: qman]
    #26148199 -

Here are some of the points I consider.

Generally there's first the creation of a universe from nothing, then the multiplicity of factors all being perfectly tuned from the big bang to support life, and finally there is the actual formation itself of life from non-life.

Then there are the specifics like the veracity of Jesus's existence, the verified authorship of Paul in the bible, and how facts that are accepted by scholars on both sides support the disciple's testimony of a resurrected Jesus.
https://crossexamined.org/the-minimal-facts-of-the-resurrection/
A few more good pieces of supporting evidence:
https://crossexamined.org/10-reasons-accept-resurrection-jesus-historical-fact/

The universe came finely-tuned for life out of the big bang. 

The astronomical odds against this complex fine-tuning point to a creator; the single cause of:
1.  The creation of the universe from nothing.
2.  This universe being so exceedingly finely-tuned, from the moment of the big bang, to support life.
3.  The actual formation of life itself from non-life.

Either that or one just believes in getting unreasonably lucky.

I'll post more specifics about the fine-tuned universe at the end of this post.

The Bible contains the verified authorship of Paul who recorded not only the risen Jesus appearing to him, but that he had subsequently been interviewing the original disciples who lived with Jesus before and after his resurrection.

The most interesting apologetical arguments for me have been the Cosmological argument, the teleological argument, the origin of life from non-life, the multiple eyewitness testimonies of a risen Jesus by the verified authorship of Paul, near death experiences with verified out-of-body observations such as those published in a study by the esteemed international medical journal The Lancet (Gary Habermas, of "The Minimal Facts Argument for the Resurrection" fame, has put out further examples of these NDE verified OBEs), my own forays into instrumental trans-communication evidencing non-physical intelligent communication, and recently I've become interested in the evidences for fulfilled biblical prophecy as well, such as the Daniel 70 week prophecy.


So again, these arguments I'm considering are: the problems of the formation of the universe from nothing, that it was created finely-tuned for life by multiple cosmological constants, and the formation of life from non-life.

I also find it compelling that Paul has verified authorship, and interviews the other apostles to verify their experiences of the resurrected Jesus in addition to his own encounter.

The enemies of Jesus say (in the Talmud) that he performed miracles by the devil, and claim the disciples stole his body... confirming his miracles and empty tomb. 

That apostles went to their death for their eyewitness testimony also lends credence to the validity of their testimony.

The fulfilled prophecies are another very fascinating aspect of verification.

It is for these reasons and more that I am no longer an athiest. 


‐---------------‐--------------------------------------


The universe is clearly fine-tuned.

"If the Holye state didn’t exist, stars could not produce the abundance of carbon they do. Carbon is the basic element upon which life is built. If it were scanter in the universe, life wouldn’t exist, down to the simplest microbes. And it wasn’t clear, for a long time, how the Hoyle state worked, just that it must: After all, here we are.

More recently, scientists have pointed out that if one tweaks many of the dimensionless physical constants — numbers like pi that are independent of units and simply exist as fundamental ideas — none of the cosmos we see would exist. One of these numbers is omega, the density parameter, which pits gravity’s pull against the expanding push of dark energy. If gravity were stronger, the universe would have long since ceased expanding, and would have collapsed back down in a reverse Big Bang, often called the “Big Crunch.” If dark energy were stronger, then the universe would race away from itself so that no matter would stick together and stars, planets, and people could never form.

If the cosmos were truly a random and senseless arrangement of particles, it seems eerie or suspicious to many that these two forces balance so delicately.

...

The universe does seem fine-tuned for our existence."

http://www.astronomy.com/news/2018/11/are-the-laws-of-the-universe-fine-tuned-for-life

"For more than 400 years, physicists treated the universe like a machine, taking it apart to see how it ticks. The surprise is it turns out to have remarkably few parts: just leptons and quarks and four fundamental forces to glue them together.

But those few parts are exquisitely machined. If we tinker with their settings, even slightly, the universe as we know it would cease to exist. Science now faces the question of why the universe appears to have been “fine-tuned” to allow the appearance of complex life, a question that has some potentially uncomfortable answers."

https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/a-universe-made-for-me-physics-fine-tuning-and-life

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: flickedbic]
    #26148238 -

shabdaṁ shriṇute vishuddhaṁ

seek that.

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: akira_akuma]
    #26153189 -

I'm glad I found this. I've had a life long question no-one has been able to answer. How is God all knowing and perfect if 1) he doesn't know he's making a mistake and 2) like humans he's controlled and flawed by emotions. My question is based off of God's pleasure with his creation of man (Genesis chapter 1 verse  31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.) then his regret and emotional judgement to destroy us until Noah calmed him down (Genesis chapter 6 verses 5,6,7 and 8. 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
I see three problems 1) he didn't know the falling angels would produce children with humans and humans would become evil. 2) the emotional control caused him to become emotional enough to state he would destroy us all (even those who obeyed him. Like Noah and those spared from the flood.) and 3) he lied because he didn't destroy man from the face of the earth. Noah saved use but at the cost of making God a liar.

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: Jay1] * 2
    #26153224 -

"my foolish faith in Jesus Christ"

*defends it with a fiery crusader sword*


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: Jay1]
    #26153269 -

So if God is all knowing he knew from beginning till the end that things where gonna get twisted. (Creation to the revelation) so what if God does has a flaw what if God started something but fucked up a little then did some more magic convinced some people to do somethings and shift it back on track in a way where wars where waged souls where tanken angles smashed on some human pussy all that good stuff .even as Fucked as it sounds . Like creating Lucifer knowing he was gonna go against the grain . What if there's a plot twist in all this and no one goes to hell and we all end up in heaven. What if God wants us to forgive him?

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: AtheTruth] * 1
    #26153676 -

It's really weird to think about Jesus, if he existed and did indeed have so many miracles surrounding his existence, it certainly seems like someone with his abilities could NOT POSSIBLY have existed.
Yet. If you look into it, there is some historical evidence that he did indeed exist, and with several eyewitness accounts from the time period of his many miracles. (Transfiguration of christ, the resurrection, walking on water, etc)
What always struck me as odd,  however, is there isn't a single description  of his appearance from his alleged time period.
I think this had something to do Jewish beliefs at the time, but you would think with the thousands of people he allegedly interacted with, that there would have been someone who described his physical appearance,  and some allegedly did describe him through second hand accounts, but this just seems to be more rumor and myth.
But I don't know, really.
His disciples certainly existed and 10 of them took their testimony of him to the grave as martyrs.
Paul was actively hunting Christians down before claiming he interacted with the resurrected jesus, and he soon faced persecution himself over his sudden and dramatic change in personality and goals.
So it's weird to me that Paul, living in relative comfort in a position of authority and means would suddenly give it all up to spend most of his life in prison furthering christianity.
It is just not something any rational person would do if they were trying to propagate a lie, the same goes for the martyred disciples of Jesus.
It's this that makes me seriously consider that he did in fact exist and did some amazing things, possibly rising from the dead and interacting with people afterwards.

There is no other person like this to have existed ever before or ever since.
This one man is the greatest influential person of all time and how would that be possible if not for some of his story to be real?


I mean, the bible in it's current form and organized religion are questionable no doubt. And have the power to make people unwitting slaves to its message, no doubt this power corrupted VERY many, and I think this corruption is what makes people so hostile towards believing someone like this could have even existed.
But if he did?
It's completly mind-blowing.

I don't know what to make of it, I used to blindly believe not possible, but some scholarly research as of late has me in a state of agnosticism.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: Jay1]
    #26153685 -

Jay1 said:
I'm glad I found this. I've had a life long question no-one has been able to answer. How is God all knowing and perfect if 1) he doesn't know he's making a mistake and 2) like humans he's controlled and flawed by emotions. My question is based off of God's pleasure with his creation of man (Genesis chapter 1 verse  31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.) then his regret and emotional judgement to destroy us until Noah calmed him down (Genesis chapter 6 verses 5,6,7 and 8. 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
I see three problems 1) he didn't know the falling angels would produce children with humans and humans would become evil. 2) the emotional control caused him to become emotional enough to state he would destroy us all (even those who obeyed him. Like Noah and those spared from the flood.) and 3) he lied because he didn't destroy man from the face of the earth. Noah saved use but at the cost of making God a liar.




In Revelation 13:8 Jesus is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...

This means that before the world was even created, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was already written.

These verses are touching on a mystery that is far beyond man's wisdom.
I can't even begin to fathom the power of God who exists both inside and outside of time... God who knows the End before the Beginning.

That brings this other verse to mind, also describing Jesus:

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus Christ is above and beyond the very fabric of Time.  We cannot begin to comprehend the dimensions of how great He is.

And to think this Almighty God came down to this fallen world to die for us, bloody, in excruciating pain, nailed to a wooden cross.  The infinite Love God showed for his creation that rejected Him and worshipped their own flesh...

That's why it is so easy for us to be saved if we just turn from the world and believe in Jesus.  No matter where you are in your life, Jesus is right there with you... waiting for you to call out to Him.

God knew exactly how you'd live your life, whatever you, the reader, did in your life to end up here reading these words.  God knew it all, and even knows how you're going to respond, and yet the choice is yours. 

God is waiting for you to finally give up on yourself and turn back to Him. 

That's essentially what the Holy Bible is... it is one repeating story, one fractal pattern, illuminating the choice we have between the World and God.



Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

- Colossians 1


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26153704 -

relevant:
https://www.minds.com/CynicalBastard/blog/the-sufi-way-navigated-by-intellect-1010763360031465472

The Sufi Way Navigated By Intellect

§1: Sufi's follow the path of the mystics- which is the path of the prophets- which is the path underlying all religions. Religious faiths are illogical. They form organizations without the leader- as all religions have formed from the desert- from dead prophets- no navi, no navigation. No navigation, no truth; no truth, no reality; no reality, no law; no law, no path/way, q.e.f.

§2: Religions based on texts are also unreal- as in they are misapprehending their own reality- [cf. Matt. 11:27 / Qur'an 14:4 & 2:136] no walayah [وِلاية], no silsilah [سلسلة].

§3: The "law" is also synonymous in other religions, like the Dharmakāya of Buddhism & Manusmriti [मनुस्मृति] of Hinduism. This is where religions are bourne. Thru the "law" of the "word" of God[s].

§4: Shari'a is synonymous with the cornerstone of the Qur'an, it's insuperable- it is basically the external "law", while the Qur'an is the esoteric teaching as God's Word [kalaam-i Illaahi].

§5: Fiqh / trad. jurisprudence (أصول الفقه) ['roots of fiqh'] is derived from "Islamic law" or in other words, shari'a (شريعة). It's from the word of Allaah (الله).

§6: The etymology of "Torah" is derived, ultimately, from the verbal root w-r-w "to throw, cast, lead, guide"....So yes, Torah or Shari'a "leads". To think this "law" is the same thing as "penal law" is wrongheaded. Shari'a does not mean "law", per se, but is the "law" [which is why it's given the title "sharia law"]; shari'a means "path", and in layman's terms, the "path" is not "criminal law", but "moral law".

§7: It'd be better to say that "Sharia is the Arabic term for Islamic law, and it literally translates as 'a path to water where people can drink and seek nourishment'..." It's literally 'a term for Arabic law'- which is derived from the already extant term, from the root [ش ر ع].

§8: Qur'an [Islam] follows Torah [Jews] as "peoples of the book", they follow the "law", "word", "way", and it is the "faith" and cornerstone of their religions, similarly to most [if not all] religions.

§9: To Christians, Jesus is more so the cornerstone of their faith, than the old or new testament. To Muslims, Muhammad is more so the cornerstone of their faith, than the Qur'an, per se [that is, viz. it's textual formula]- however, this foundation is round the true cornerstone.

§10: The "word" [Kalam or كلام] itself isn't even words; it's a path, and a "grace" by way of Muhammad [al-barakah al-Muhammadiyya / نعمة المحمدية]. The silsila [or golden chain] is kept thru time immemorial.

§11: The message and the messenger are the "way to the watering-hole" which, as I said, also, is a metaphor for a higher truth. That God is the "way" and entirely unique, q.e.d.

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Re: My Foolish Faith in Jesus Christ [Re: hTx]
    #26155720 -

hTx said:
It's really weird to think about Jesus, if he existed and did indeed have so many miracles surrounding his existence, it certainly seems like someone with his abilities could NOT POSSIBLY have existed.
Yet. If you look into it, there is some historical evidence that he did indeed exist, and with several eyewitness accounts from the time period of his many miracles. (Transfiguration of christ, the resurrection, walking on water, etc)
What always struck me as odd,  however, is there isn't a single description  of his appearance from his alleged time period.
I think this had something to do Jewish beliefs at the time, but you would think with the thousands of people he allegedly interacted with, that there would have been someone who described his physical appearance,  and some allegedly did describe him through second hand accounts, but this just seems to be more rumor and myth.
But I don't know, really.
His disciples certainly existed and 10 of them took their testimony of him to the grave as martyrs.
Paul was actively hunting Christians down before claiming he interacted with the resurrected jesus, and he soon faced persecution himself over his sudden and dramatic change in personality and goals.
So it's weird to me that Paul, living in relative comfort in a position of authority and means would suddenly give it all up to spend most of his life in prison furthering christianity.
It is just not something any rational person would do if they were trying to propagate a lie, the same goes for the martyred disciples of Jesus.
It's this that makes me seriously consider that he did in fact exist and did some amazing things, possibly rising from the dead and interacting with people afterwards.

There is no other person like this to have existed ever before or ever since.
This one man is the greatest influential person of all time and how would that be possible if not for some of his story to be real?


I mean, the bible in it's current form and organized religion are questionable no doubt. And have the power to make people unwitting slaves to its message, no doubt this power corrupted VERY many, and I think this corruption is what makes people so hostile towards believing someone like this could have even existed.
But if he did?
It's completly mind-blowing.

I don't know what to make of it, I used to blindly believe not possible, but some scholarly research as of late has me in a state of agnosticism.


The disciple Thomas would not fully believe, even as the resurrected Jesus Christ stood before him. 

This man Jesus who was publicly whipped, nailed to a cross, and driven through with a spear... left as a bloody corpse buried in a tomb for days... and here Jesus stood.

It wasn't until Thomas reached out and felt the actual nail prints in Jesus' own hands, and the wound in his side, did Thomas finally surrender to the truth, and realize that he now stood before God.



The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John Ch. 20
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20&version=KJV


Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, those with a heart hardened against God will still deny the truth.  People don't have an "evidence" problem with God, they have a heart problem.  We don't want to admit that we've rebelled against our own creator, that we need forgiveness....  We refuse to give up the driver's seat of our lives and give all the glory back to God.

It sounds like you're softening up to the truth.  The seed is planted.

He waits at the door knocking.  Call out to Jesus now and have your answer.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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