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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 3
    #25746724 -

Just look at the current value of 'hooking up.' Forget about 'courtship' let alone 'dating' that goes back at least to the 1950s. Hooking up on socio-sexual virtual platforms has increased the commodification of sex way more than prostitution ever did. As such, people now 'zipper' their chakra connections from the bottom up instead of the top down. Rarely does a purely sexual relationship or one based in survival and sex ever rise to higher levels. For some people, sex opens their heart center, but the 'Mercury' in that chakra thermometer does not continue to rise and usually falls below the sexual level. Then those people think that they've fallen out of love, but they were never truly IN love. They had mistaken eros (sexual) and ludus (playful) for agapé (universal) and pragma ('standing in love') forms of love. Connection begun with mind, language, and loving-kindness reflects the highest chakra centers of consciousness from the top down and only after these connections does it descend to the physical expression of love. This alone is the correct 'order of operations' in order to 'form a more lasting union,' IF that is the goal. If hooking up is the only expectation, fine, but even in this the lying and dishonesty seems profound. Old pictures, marital status, false claims about social, professional, and financial status seems to abound. Again, no honor or integrity.

Among a certain class of people in Miami (having worked with adolescents and their parents for almost 3 decades), many will lie as readily as and often more readily than telling the truth. These beings derive a certain perverse satisfaction in getting over on another even in the pettiest of things. There is no discernible honor among this class of people, but unfortunately when there is, it is usually reserved for those of identical or close ethnic identities. It is easier to be dishonest with other ethnicities but they dishonor their own group by being so perversely ethnocentric. Agapé is missing from them and they often still think they are 'Christian' in identity.

When not imposed by rigid social conventions as in past eras, honor needs to flow from an internalized value system where sheer honesty governs one's inner as well as outer life. One is not governed by hedonism and the Pleasure Principle or a Will to Power but by a transcendental principle which is at once compassionate towards self and others but which is ruthlessly honest with oneself about one's motives for acting in the world.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25746758 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
When not imposed by rigid social conventions as in past eras, honor needs to flow from an internalized value system where sheer honesty governs one's inner as well as outer life. One is not governed by hedonism and the Pleasure Principle or a Will to Power but by a transcendental principle which is at once compassionate towards self and others but which is ruthlessly honest with oneself about one's motives for acting in the world.


Well said!

There's also a reduced number of options as far as defending your honor go too, perhaps because for so long copping things on the chin/turning the other cheek has been championed as the socially accepted reaction to insults to your honor. When things aren't worth protecting or defending then obviously there value is small and the attention you give them reduced.

Slut-shaming is the first thing that pops to mind that would suggest that some people still think preserving your honor/dignity in the old fashioned sense of being lady-like is a good thing and therefore still prevalent to some extent.

What is considered honorable changes with the times and therefore how it is expressed changes with the times too. When looking for instances of honorable behavior maybe it's there just in a different form.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25746876 -

awful that slut shaming is the first thing in your mind.

maybe midwest

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25746905 -

Apologies if it came off offensive, I was lazily saying that when I considered a topical or public example of honor at play that was the first thing that came to mind, slut shamers are kind of saying people should be ashamed for breaking the code that says permiscuity is wrong and therefore dishonorable to the slut shamers code. I don't agree with slut shaming, it was just the first thing that popped into my head, each to their own.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MayaRefugee] * 1
    #25750614 -

MayaRefugee said:
What is considered honorable changes with the times and therefore how it is expressed changes with the times too.


I'm not sure I agree with this. As someone above said, honour = honesty.

It strikes me that, increasingly as time passes, we are fed more and more lies. Therefore perhaps it has become more acceptable to lie in the social consciousness. Or perhaps to just tolerate them without objection?

Perhaps the increase in communication methods/platforms available to us is a catalyst to this.

Big lies based on little lies.

I do think honour is more than this; like sticking to ones word, being there for people when they need you, acting truly for your (and others) best interests rather than taking a quick/easy fix or giving in to temptation.

But honesty definitely seems a centrepoint of honour.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #25750664 -

Honesty is a virtue, what passes as virtuous conduct changes with the times, the culture, the moral climate, etc.

Someone being honest might describe their conduct and not feel a need to berate themselves or accept chastisement from their tribe whereas someone else being honest might describe the exact same conduct but not see berating themselves or the chastisement of others as justified.

In my life, what I have found honourable, are acts that reflect my paradigm as it relates to virtue - not everyone shares this impression of virtue, things that were honourable socially en mass are no longer honourable en mass e.g. modesty, discretion, loyalty, commitment, etc.

To recognise honourable conduct I think virtues need to be defined - then you can tell if those behaviours are honest to some code of virtue.

It's the classic "In my day" gripe of the elderly, what is and what isn't socially acceptable and or virtous changes generation to generation when, like someone previously mentioned, there is no king or some authority policing how people carry themselves.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MayaRefugee] * 2
    #25750855 -

I dunno man. Ever read 'The Thoughts Of Marcus Aurelius'?

That book was written almost 2,000 years ago and I think the descriptions of virtue and honour therein are as relevant today as they were then.

One can argue that the swings and sways of culture have merit in regards to what is socially acceptable, but deep down...

What's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong. We know this in ourselves, without even knowing that we know it (exceptions to the rule, such as psychopaths, excluded). Changing culture may apply layer upon layer of wallpaper of different shades and patterns over the top of that, but I give very little credence to it, personally, favouring instead to look into the very depths of the human condition/experience, which of it's nature is finite and unchanging.

But then, I always was a social outcast, and I'm more happy to be one now than ever.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #25752020 -

No, haven't read that. I once read about the Roman virtues, honesty was/is called veritas.

I concur that we sense what is virtuous conduct but not everyone values what is sensed and sometimes don't have the luxury of being able to conduct themselves in a way congruent with what is sensed - kind of like the child that doesn't want the Father to kill the beast to feed the family, the child senses it's not right but it is how things are done. The child becomes desensitized to the innately sensed virtue and a code of values replaces it.

From a Buddhist sense of virtue we have the Noble Eightfold path, the army have a sense that gets rewarded with medals of honour, Christians have a sense that is set out in the examples in the Bible, Jenny from the block has a sense derived from instagram, HBO and music videos, the shamed samurai commits sepukku to honour the code of his people, etc

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25755360 -

what is your exact definition of honour?

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MUSHYCAT] * 1
    #25756377 -

It's tricky because it can be a verb or a noun.

My understanding is it's kind of any act that is congruent with datums external to the individual e.g. parents wishes, tradition, codes of conduct, Gods word, etc. as opposed to the natural untamed urges of an individual e.g greed, self-preservation, selfishness, etc. It generally implies the sacrificing or transcendence of these lower impulses to those of agreed upon as higher by an other e.g. family, community, army, empire, person in need, etc.

As alluded to before virtues are typically the datums we honour. Virtues can be different depending where you find yourself.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MayaRefugee] * 1
    #25756609 -

Would it help to further define virtue or honor, upon that grinding between individual and "external" basis of values?

Ideals, social norms, religious and tradition based morals; all these concepts of human virtues or honors that are shared in human communities in different cultures, are the grindstone, in a certain way. It is the frame or basis. It is not just a constant opposition, of individual ego and moral community, and it can't just be their necessary integration, in some generic way, but there is some possibility, however it is concealed or conceived by the individual of living by "honorable" qualities inwardly. Honor is only possible when it is integral to how the individual chooses to live.

In Plato's republic some few people are like "gaurdians", of the societies values, and sometimes in the external criteria, people are seen as tempered like metal, of gold or silver or bronze. "Virtue" the form of "the good" itself was also basically excellence, in the greek sense. Excellence is appreciated, a certain common way, and embodied; not just idealized. In Aristotle, virtue is known as the individual pursuit, and yet the term, eudaimonia, which translates as happiness, actually means something like "flourishing". It is good to be around these people, who seek and flourish, in and then beyond themselves in excellence. Being around excellence, is a good thing, in a non-moral sense, and yet excellence can move from the individual pursuit, to its appreciation, and friendship, kinship or community and in to something externally or socially valued. In my opinion Aristotle, is not just the basis of elitist, or meritocractic societies, but referring to something positive.

Stoicism, is very similar and basically related to greek virtue ethics. Stoicism is the jewel of western philosophy in that it is actually a meditation. It further emphasizes the practicality of the meditation on character, inwardly, especially in the grind of individuals to their community, to good or bad fortune, and to the sometimes mercilous natural world, all at once as the same thing. Stoicism seemed to grow precisely in the opulence of the roman world that was both flourishing, corrupt, and held up on pillars, and collapsing at once. This collapse was of the underlying greek values. Stoics seemed to admit it is all equal and the same like those pillaes, part of nature and balance, and living "according to nature".

To be a roman, as Marcus Aurelius said, (and to be an emperor philosopher king) was to hold a lot up, and to face a lot of decadence and luxury, that was accessible to him and to be unaffected by this. In relation to the OP, and decline of values such as honor, I think the stoic sometimes seems to to hold an opposition to weakening of values, but that is his or her place, and where it comes out. There can be an actual weakening of philosophical values over time and history, in certain periods, and generally this is not good for a people. People are not often aware of history, the more we are in a world of progress and technology, and yet, failing to acknowledge tradition, makes it impossible to give tradition any account and it becomes engrained in prejudice, and its emlty institution. That is when the worn face and the excellence of the greek stoic comes out, as honorable. That is itself his time, an alotment, and what situates and tempers the square, and balanced response.

There is a lot of great stoic meditation being shared today, but it must exist in terms of consumerism and technology, and modern institutionalism as a force. The ability to communicate something actually philosophical, and robust, and that does not wear, among the rule of change, and the next thing, and among a flippancy, witticism, and all in all in the kind of disembodied ahistorical intellectualism, and petty politics of today, makes honor, in the philosophical sense, "gaurdianship", extremely rare, and usually internalized, and yet felt as needed and appreciated where it comes to gather in a place at once.

Some great stoics today, I can think of are like Wim Hof, who is teaching cold water breathing, as a method to control the layers of the human nervous system. The roman stoics were known to use the cold, as a meditation. I am also reading a good book (on tape) by David Goggins, a former seal. He is making an attempt to reach people too. How much can be reached in people? these strands are possible to follow, but it is very difficult to understand they are not books, but how we are stoic ourselves. Whether or not people pick up emulate and integrate stoic virtues, anyone can face the opposition and duality of life, good or bad, desire and aversion, and be unaffected in our duties and actions, each day, inwardly. It is just contact of sensations with objects, and nothing more. This is in epictetus, as much as yoga and buddhism.

So here is a thought. Most stoicism (stoic honor) has to become inward, doesn't it? Maybe that is what people find, not just when outward or external criteria, as social values, and standing, are fickle, but even bodies, and their own lives, and what holds them up seem to always be on decline in this physically embodied lifetime. Stoic virtue/honor has a context in the external communities, and physical nature but it is really being true to oneself, and certain ideals and duties, in the grind of life. When you work in these realities, even just in yourself, and take account each day, as Epictetus says, the idea is simple "take account of what you can control and what you cannot" because then you can act accordingly. You can't help the turn of time. I love stoics like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca (one book given by a mentor of mine years ago) and Epictetus. To "be a roman" as Aurelius said, has a history back and forward in time and history in strands, and sinews, and bodies, but is a pillar strong and square through this alotment. Good to see people engaged in this kind of stuff, in times like this, but I believe it lives in all times in the heart and head. Its a balance, and we all are in for it, I guess.

Quote:
Hard times create strong men,
Strong men create good times,
Good times create weak men,
Weak men create hard times.


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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: Kurt] * 2
    #25756654 -

I've been shocked to hear the way that kids are interacting these days.

Ill go on about the male female things but really its a human too human thing also.

I only just got back into playing computer games and have just hooked it to the net.
It gives me a little window into how the kids are interacting when they think they are able to talk freely....it's disgusting and disturbing to hear the way these boys are talking to anything that sounds remotely female.

Their relationship education is coming straight out of the hardcore porn playbook...and so is the girls.
As bad as the boys seem to be the girls don't have anything else to measure from and seem to accept it.

When my generation is gone... which is effectively the last strands of decency and respect the normalization of these horrendous ways will become the new norm.


Now have these conversations been happening for ever/did the last generation say excatly the same things?
Or is it truly a more radical shift we are seeing.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: Kurt]
    #25756702 -

Whatever school of thought you come from, if you share the thoughts of the school, as observed by your actions, you honour the school.

Pineninja, I concur - Chuck Palhaniuk has some interesting stuff to say on this i.e. absence of "honorable" role models as it pertains to masculinity. Generations of men raised by women etc. Highly recommend looking into him.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: MayaRefugee] * 3
    #25760013 -

Yes everything is in decline.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: Cowb0yNeal00] * 1
    #25771324 -

to thread:
Thanks for picking up my argument about honesty. I didn't read all the following answers (what I surely will), but for Maya:
I am very simple with this 'honesty-honour' logic. Its foundation simply is 'truth' and I know how relative it can be.
I relate to the 'simple truth', which first means 'no lies'. I know most who lie, don't know and believe their own lies.
Sorry for the rumbling, but I think the connection of honour and honesty is still worth a tight considering which leads to the foundation of its understanding.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #25772086 -

BlueCoyote said:
I know most who lie, don't know and believe their own lies.


Ah, the popular art of self-deception.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25774659 -

Indeed. The best liars are those who believe their own lies.
Later, I guess they forget they even had been lies, even if they once knew.
And as they base their next truths on lies, their truths are dishonored from the beginning, even they don't know that anymore and they think they talk about the truth.

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/28/19 12:44 PM)

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: BlueCoyote] * 1
    #25774986 -

"And as they base their next truths on lies, their truths are dishonored from the beginning, even they don't know that anymore and they think they talk about the truth."

Such is life.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: pineninja]
    #25775030 -

https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/936709990906572800
On Politicians:

Man (in general) works for government. Man's job is to say things that are perceived as right, which is (in this case for the man's government) (usually - morally) wrong.
This man's job is also to work for the government, but in his case (working for the government), his job is to speak on things that are wrong, to set things right; and in this case what is wrong is right, as they both work for the same government. He just has a different talking point.

So what I am saying is that he is doing a good job on not speaking on man's general perception, while speaking on his; which is right (wrong) and it's only right because that is his "job" to speak on those talking points. He is not allowed to go on general talking points because if that was say, Robert F. Kennedy's job, he'd be saying right things wrong; as it's his "job" to know how to give the "right talking points" and to give the perception that he isn't the general government (which he still is technically, just it isn't in his job description right now because he is always talking about media influence being restricted and Americans being duped and so forth...) hence he is saying the right things "the wrong way"... and in otherwords; he is NOT saying the wrong things "the right way".

I am merely stating that he is an innocent man, trying to do the right thing. And what he (and everyone else for that matter) is talking about (only not giving the whole perception about) is what is... RIGHT. But he couldn't say it, cause he'd be in trouble.

https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/936709111537184768

I'll tell you one thing, I can't cope with other people's idiocy. It's a major concern for my wellbeing.

I'm just gonna say that the wrong way to do things is by expecting the facets of human coercion and dependence to do right by you, because it's been one way one's whole life. When it comes down to it, people just do the nearest thing, and most times it's boiling retarded crap, that pools up into sludgy divides. simple shit, like you need to have a job, just make no logical sense whatsoever, there is no more moral obligation, there is no duty to anyone...it's just a platonic "rule" that people follow, and they'll get offended if one doesn't follow that sensibility.

That's just one example. There are literally hundreds of example. Just look at any recent spouse or GF...look at your parents, how you were raised...look at how people react online to stupid shit, and then pander the next position they have as if it's high and mighty, when it's just as bad as what they've shot down...look at the divides and you'll see it all stems from the reduction or denouncement of an actual reason to point out any insignificance, that's necessary to deride for ones "survival" of future or present endeavors; in favor for an easy simple answer that can be choked up and spit out on command.

The path of least resistance. I just use the acclimation's most people use, to a finite degree of assertiveness, and it will always get spit in my face; because i don't do one thing or another "right" by a certain standard, in which sets up the proclamation that i am "wrong" for only doing what most people do in their "free time". I'm not doing anything for humans, themselves. No wonder each person has got like ten different bosses. Gotta keep everyone in line and in check with the status quo, otherwise they might just start acting human and realize that this shithole life isn't how they want to live. Get 'em in by Friday, till they retire at 60. Then they'll be too overwrought and destroyed to care about their wasted youth, and have unquestioning loyalty to their "proclamations" about "human nature" and "the economy" and now it's "the environment", shit when is this shit ever gonna go back to "food on the table", "not wasting money",....

People just parrot the next thing over, until they get it right, to the next person over.

The word deletrious keeps hanging in my mind. People are damaged. People just can't help but be completely boggled by the inanity of life, so they just cope by performing like robots. Pod people. Hell, I am a pod person, and there is no escape from this fact, other then "stay away".

Edited by akira_akuma (01/28/19 04:22 PM)

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Re: Is honour on the decline? [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #25781600 -

Oh there are many fundamental lies, without our whole system would collapse.
One famous, I would rank on the top ten, for example is : Economy is built upon growth.
That is a fatal lie, based 200 years ago, as the forests seemed endless and the oceans seemed wide.

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