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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25579902 -

koods said:
I think I’m done explaining this. You are either being intentionally obtuse or you are actually obtuse.


good thing it isnt really important in regards to the point i brought up.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 2
    #25579954 -

I don’t know if racism is a natural conservative value. What I do know is that conservatives in the US since the 60s have supported policies that appeal to the racial resentment and fears of the majority white population. There is no doubt that democrats are more appealing to minorities. White nationalist, neo-nazis, xenophobes and anti-gay activists are almost exclusively aligned with the republicans in modern America. This is just a fact. That is where we are.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25579973 -

koods said:
I don’t know if racism is a natural conservative value. What I do know is that conservatives in the US since the 60s have supported policies that appeal to the racial resentment and fears of the majority white population. There is no doubt that democrats are more appealing to minorities. White nationalist, neo-nazis, xenophobes and anti-gay activists are almost exclusively aligned with the republicans in modern America. This is just a fact. That is where we are.


can you give me an example ofsome of those policies? if someone supports socialism and associates themselves with the republican party, they are a leftist. plain and simple. it doesnt matter that richard spencer calls his movement "the alt right" he is a leftist.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 1
    #25580016 -

Well he’s and his ilk are voting for republicans and very vocal about their support. Your opinion of their politics isn’t really important. They support the right.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/the-smoking-gun-proving-north-carolina-republicans-tried-to-disenfranchise-black-voters/?utm_term=.8a73d85a0fef

Just one example of overtly racist policy. Read the article


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25580034 -

koods said:
Well he’s and his ilk are voting for republicans and very vocal about their support. Your opinion of their politics isn’t really important. They support the right.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/the-smoking-gun-proving-north-carolina-republicans-tried-to-disenfranchise-black-voters/?utm_term=.8a73d85a0fef

Just one example of overtly racist policy. Read the article


i dont care who they vote for. if you support redistributive social programs you are a leftist. sure ruchard spencer likes that the right side of the isle tend to be anti illegal immigration. because hes against all immigration of nonwhites. he doesnt not support free enterprise capitolism and supports socialism. he is a leftist.

you need to look up the definition of overt. even if you want to claim that the policy is racially motivated, it certainly wasnt overt. they didnt come out and say it even if you are right. thats an unsubstantiated conspirasy theory.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 2
    #25580066 -

It’s not a comspiracy theory. It’s the majority opinion of a federal court that the law was racist by intent  and the law was overturned. The law was overtly racist.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (10/30/18 10:12 PM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25580137 -

well i mean even if u were to make the case that racist lean more towards conservative views i dont think u could call it inherently racist. I really calls into question how many of these attacks were actually politically motivated and not just racist.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25580147 -

the first thing your link says is that voter fraud isnt really a thing. this is what the pew research center found in 2012

There were almost "24 million active voter registrations in the U.S. either invalid or inaccurate."

Almost two million dead Americans were still on the active voting lists.

12 million voter records were riddled with "incorrect addresses or other errors."

voter fraud could effect the outcome of a close election.

"Since 80% of noncitizens vote Democratic, according to the survey, the authors concluded that these illegal votes were “large enough to plausibly account for Democratic victories in a few close elections.” Those that might have been skewed by noncitizen votes included Al Franken’s 312-vote win in the Minnesota race for the U.S. Senate. As a senator, Mr. Franken would cast the 60th vote needed to make ObamaCare law."
-Hans Von Spakovsky

in 2012 blacks had a higher turn out than whites even in states with voter ID laws according to the US Census Bureau.

are you saying black people are incapeable of obtaining an in state drivers lisence or a US passport? that sounds kinda racist.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #25580160 -

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
well i mean even if u were to make the case that racist lean more towards conservative views i dont think u could call it inherently racist. I really calls into question how many of these attacks were actually politically motivated and not just racist.


exactly. but its not like the OP is only counting politically motivated attacks anyway. he is counting the parkland shooting for the right wing/trump supporters. even though nikolas cruz was clearly a nihlistic, bitter kid who wannted to cause death and suffering and didnt attavh a political message to the attack as far as im aware. but even still i havent seen any evidence that all of these racist and anti semitic attackers were right wing and all racists and anti semites arent right wing.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25580415 -

“Fuck antifa I wish to kill as many as I can. I am going to kill them in the future”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/02/17/cruz-threatened-violence-in-disturbing-online-rants/amp/
Quote:
The deranged 19-year-old told members of a a six-member Instagram group called “Murica great” that he wanted to kill Mexicans, keep black people in chains and cut their necks, according to the vile messages obtained by CNN.

Cruz said he hated black people simply because they were black, and Jews because he said they wanted to destroy the world.

And he hated homosexuals and white women who dated minorities.

“Shoot them in the back of head,” he said about gay people.

A member of the group chat told the outlet that Cruz, “seemed nice but also had some mental issues.”

“All [I know] is that he likes guns and really hates liberals,” the person said.


Not only was he politically motivated, he was clearly emboldened by trumps anti-immigrant, anti-liberal, Nationalist rhetoric


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25580428 -

koods said:
“Fuck antifa I wish to kill as many as I can. I am going to kill them in the future”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/02/17/cruz-threatened-violence-in-disturbing-online-rants/amp/
Quote:
The deranged 19-year-old told members of a a six-member Instagram group called “Murica great” that he wanted to kill Mexicans, keep black people in chains and cut their necks, according to the vile messages obtained by CNN.

Cruz said he hated black people simply because they were black, and Jews because he said they wanted to destroy the world.

And he hated homosexuals and white women who dated minorities.

“Shoot them in the back of head,” he said about gay people.

A member of the group chat told the outlet that Cruz, “seemed nice but also had some mental issues.”

“All [I know] is that he likes guns and really hates liberals,” the person said.


Not only was he politically motivated, he was clearly emboldened by trumps anti-immigrant, anti-liberal, Nationalist rhetoric


fair enough, scratch what i said about Nicholas Cruz.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25580775 -

Yeah, Nicholas Cruz' Instagram profile photo was a pic of himself in MAGA hat, sooo

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 1
    #25580810 -

BANANA.MAN said:
the republicans freed the slaves, Eisenhower supported desegregating public schools, they passed the civil rights act of 1964, a higher percentage of republicans than democrats supported the voting rights act of 1965. and i already debunked the "southern strategy" in another thread not too long ago.

some leftwingers dont consider themselves progressives. some conservatives do consider themselves progressive. the progressive conservative government is in power in Ontario right now.

while i consider myself a social conservative aswell as a fiscal conservative and dont consiser myself a progressive, race makes no difference to me. id rather have kids with a woman of colour who shares my values than a white socialist. there is no question. i fony see any reason 3hy that conflicts with my values and i would consider myself very far right. not only do i detest redistribution of wealth i wabt as little government intervention as possible in the market. thats what far right means to me. but with the way its being used i geuss "far right" can suddenly mean leftism + racism.


To be clear, I'm not saying racism is inherently a social conservative value. Social values are mutable, not static. That being said, it is undeniable that racism is no longer considered acceptable amongst social progressives, whereas racism still finds partial acceptance amongst social conservatives. Not all social conservatives are racist, but all racists are social conservatives.

Secondly, we aren't talking about Republicans of 50 years ago, nor are we talking about Republicans of today, we are talking about the entire right-wing (in North America).

Thirdly, as I already stated, society isn't static and the liberal views of yesterday can become the conservative views of today. Don't get so hung up on the past when discussing the present.




BANANA.MAN said:
shiva said right wing also means conservative social values. i was saying i dont see how its a conservatuve social value when the republican party has been fighting racism so long.


Remember, my claim is that racism is associated with the right-wing and social conservatism - not that you must be racist to be on the right-wing or a social conservative.

Let me explain in this way: before the civil rights era, racism was widely accepted. For example, no one would blink twice if a sign saying "No Negros!" was placed in a storefront. Then, as society embraced civil rights, this type of open racism was rejected by social progressives, whereas social conservatives (by definition, sceptical of social change, and believe in maintaining the status quo) resisted this change in social relationships.

Nowadays, which side of the political spectrum would like to return to the days when "No Negros!" signs were completely acceptable? Not every social conservative wants to return to the pre-civil rights era, but everyone who wants to return to the pre-civil rights era is a social conservative.

You yourself, in this thread, have stated that you don't consider the civil rights act to be right-wing policy - why are you so confused with racism being associated with the right-wing?




BANANA.MAN said:
if someone supports socialism and associates themselves with the republican party, they are a leftist. plain and simple. it doesnt matter that richard spencer calls his movement "the alt right" he is a leftist.


Political ideology does not devolve to such a simple dichotomy. There is more involved then only the most shallow comparison of economic systems. Social values are just as significant, if not moreso. Beyond that, an economic system is just a means to an end, not an end in itself. If I'm advocating for socialism to bring about a classless society, and Richard Spencer is advocating for socialism to maintain a system of white supremacy, that is a significant difference.

Both surgeons and serial killers will cut people open, but that's just a means to two very different ends.






Seriously, take a step back and think about this. You are trying to say that a white supremacist whose entire realm of organizing and support exists on the right-wing, who personally identifies as right-wing, is vocally supportive of Donald Trump, founded a think tank that writes about conservative and racial issues, and has been resoundingly rejected by the left - you are trying to claim this person is a leftist because they used the word socialism without making any attempt to understand his ideology beyond the most shallow level. Does this really seem reasonable?


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (10/31/18 07:58 AM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25581022 -

ok fine white supremecy is conservative in that its not progressive. i was also talking about anti semitism. Louis Farrakhan and Linda sarsour are both antisemitic yet they are mainstream "progressives". definately more mainstream than richard spencer. linda sarsour was like the head organizer of  the womans march that was all over the news in 2016. another womans march organizer, rasmea odeh was convicted of terrorism in jerusalem in 1970. she planted bombs, one of which killed two israelis. she got sentenced to life in prison but was traded in a prisoner swap with the popular front for the liberation of palestine. a terrorist organization. she didnt mention her convictions when she applied for a US visa or her citizenship and she was deported when they were discovered. people tried to excuse her actions because shes so progressive clearly. including womans march organizers and judge, Gershwin Drain.

you cant be right wing if you dont support free enterprise capitolism. that is a defining factor. there may be certain social values associated with the right side if the isle but the defining factor is beleif in the free market and constitutional rights. i really dont think im going to change my mind on that. alt right is a misnomer. sure they hate progressivism and like the anti illegal immigration, anti PC stuff associated with the right. but richard spencer is not right wing.

Edited by BANANA.MAN (10/31/18 08:45 AM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25581240 -

There is nothing mainstream about Louis Farrakhan lol


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25581245 -

Dude how much can you support capitAlism when you can’t even spell it ?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods] * 1
    #25581343 -

well Richard Spencer certainly cant draw a crowd like Farrakhan.

representitive, Danny K davis defended his ties with him. maxine waters attended a nation of islam rally where farrakhan talked about evil jews and defended palestinian terrorism. he acknowledged her pressence during his speech and everyone cheered. there is also a video of them hugging online.


obama posed for a photo with him in 2005.

representitive, andre carson met with him. i could go on.

forget the fact that sevral woman's march organizers are upfront about supporting him. these are mainstream politicians.

this is a guy who once praised Adolf Hitler on stage infront of an audience.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 1
    #25581376 -

Louis Farrakhan
Not all forms of black nationalism are antisemitic or racist, but I think this guy and the Nation of Islam are bad news. I agree it is hypocritical of people critical of Trump to associate with Farrakhan without criticizing his antisemitism and racism. I never claimed that the left-wing is perfect. You are right that black nationalists find more support among the left-wing , but you should also notice that the one confirmed black nationalist in our list (Micah Xavier Johnson) is included under left-wing violence.

Note: Black nationalism like that put forth by Farrakhan would actually be another example of Third Positionism; albeit with a slightly different flavour than Richard Spencer's version. It's basically a combination of marxism, religious conservatism, racism, and antisemitism.



Linda Sarsour
Supporting the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement is not antisemitism. Criticizing the state of Israel is not antisemitism. Unless you have further information, I do not consider this person to have displayed antisemtic opinions.



Rasmea Odeh
I personally support militant action by the Palestinian people against Israeli occupation and repression, so that alone isn't enough to discredit someone in my eyes; although I cannot support that the bombings she participated in seemingly targeted areas of random civilians, I can understand the context she lived under that resulted in it.

Still, this was nearly 50 years ago, and she hasn't been accused of any violence since she was 20. She also served 10 years in prison and has since admitted to the crime. I would say that, given the context, she is a rehabilitated criminal and shouldn't be judged solely by this one aspect of her character. If she was still actively participating in a bombing campaign harming random people, I would feel differently.

As for immigration fraud, as a 'no borders' anarchist I could care less about that. Definitely doesn't disqualify someone from the left.

I don't believe she has been credibly accused of antisemitism either, unless you consider Palestinian activism to be inherently antisemitic (I don't). Have any further information?












BANANA.MAN said:
you cant be right wing if you dont support free enterprise capitolism. that is a defining factor. there may be certain social values associated with the right side if the isle but the defining factor is beleif in the free market and constitutional rights. i really dont think im going to change my mind on that. alt right is a misnomer. sure they hate progressivism and like the anti illegal immigration, anti PC stuff associated with the right. but richard spencer is not right wing.


Right-wing and left-wing are actually very general categories. If you try and define them by a single binary, you will always end up with some examples that don't fit neatly into either category.

What about monarchists? This was the original meaning being 'right-wing' and still is attributed to the term today. An absolute monarchy is incompatible with constitutional rights. What about Banana Republics? State capitalism and authoritarian rule propped up by corporations; pretty far away from support for the free market and constitutional rights, but still most definitely right-wing. Political categories can be convenient, but don't limit yourself to a black and white understanding of your world.

I believe that the instances of violence listed in the op have been fairly attributed to both the left and right wing. Some examples may be slight stretches, but this occurs on both sides. Do you think any of those listed as right-wing should be removed?


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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25581384 -

Yet it’s the trump supporters who launch terror attacks.

I don’t think a religious zealot promoting Islam is particularly left wing. Religious fundamentalism is conservative.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: koods]
    #25581573 -

linda sarsour is one of the womans march organizers who is open about her support for Farrakhan. you just admitted he was bad news.

she also warned against humanizing israelis and being friends with them.


www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/251804

i think the BDS movement is anti semitic. its anti semitic to boycott israel until they get along with people who arent looking to get along. they elect terrorist groups who want to kill all jews in the area.


Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

-article seven of the 1988 Hamas Charter

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

-article eight of the 1988 Hamas charter


www.google.ca/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/senior-hamas-leader-quran-tells-us-to-drive-jews-out-of-palestines-entirety/amp/

a jew in east jerusalem is in serious danger. an arab in west jerusalem is better off there than in palestinian areas.


thanks for illustrating my point by being open about being a terrorist sympathizer.


you are defending a terrorist who killed two civillians. the whole point of this thread is that political violence is bad and here you are sympathizing with terrorists. if a right winger did that we would never hear the end of it

do you really think terrorist organizations like hamas, the palestinian authority or islamic jihad are better leaders than the israeli government? because thats eho gets elected in palestinian areas. israel is the best country in the middle east by far. the UN ranked it as the nineteenth best place to live in 2017. canada and the usa were tied for tenth and the uk was sixteenth. leftists just think that if one country is prosperous and the rest of the area sucks that the prosperous nation exploited and stole from everyone else to keep them down.

if you can defend the killing if two civilians and support millitant action against our ally israel then i dont know if this is going to be a productive conversation. i really dont know where to go from there. i dont think there is much common ground to be found on the issue of israel and you certainly arent going to change my mind sympathizing with terrorists. i try to talk to anyone whos willing but im not sure what will be accomplished when we are coming from such fundementally different axioms.

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