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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: waves]
    #25581739 -

waves said:
Yeah, Nicholas Cruz' Instagram profile photo was a pic of himself in MAGA hat, sooo


i was saying just because he is a trump supporter that doesnt mean the attack was politically motivated. after seeing the quotes koods posted i said it was fair.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25581756 -

banana.man, are you of the opinion that an approximate 20 year old someone who killed two people nearly five decades ago (in an abhorrent fashion, imo), who does her time behind bars, admits guilt, does not participate in violence in the ensuing ~ 50 years, and later participates in humanitarian causes is an irredeemably bad person?  still a terrorist (in your description)?

can nobody be rehabilitated, forgiven, and wholly accepted back into civil society?

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: relic]
    #25581767 -

and maybe i missed this somewhere, but do you consider anti-zionism, one who is an anti-zionist, to be any different than antisemitism, an antisemitic person?

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 1
    #25581787 -

I want to be clear that I never defended the killing of two civilians. I specifically said I could not support such a thing. That doesn't preclude me from judging an individual as rehabilitated and no longer a danger to other people.

Nelson Mandela took part in bombing campaigns under the apartheid government of South Africa that killed civilians; he still ended his life as a respected world leader. There is nothing controversial about giving a rehabilitated person a second chance.

Finally, the intent of this thread is not to show the political violence is bad. Everyone considers some form of political violence to have been good; whether it be the actions of George Washington or Che Guevara. The intent of this thread is to quantify whether the left or the right is more violent (the answer atm appears to be the right-wing).


--------------------

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: relic]
    #25581825 -

relic said:
banana.man, are you of the opinion that an approximate 20 year old someone who killed two people nearly five decades ago (in an abhorrent fashion, imo), who does her time behind bars, admits guilt, does not participate in violence in the ensuing ~ 50 years, and later participates in humanitarian causes is an irredeemably bad person?  still a terrorist (in your description)?

can nobody be rehabilitated, forgiven, and wholly accepted back into civil society?


she didnt serve her time. she was freed during a prisoner exchange with a marxist terrorist organization.

why did she neglect to mention her convictions if she came clean and was rehabillitated?

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25582041 -

If anything a return to segregation should be labeled "regressive" rather than conservative or progressive.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: xFrockx]
    #25582052 -

We weren’t even talking about Israel wtf


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: xFrockx]
    #25582128 -

xFrockx said:
If anything a return to segregation should be labeled "regressive" rather than conservative or progressive.


You mean safe zones for black people where whites aren't allowed? Or like Harvard's segregated graduation ceremony?

It's ridiculous. I agree.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25582170 -

XUL said:
xFrockx said:
If anything a return to segregation should be labeled "regressive" rather than conservative or progressive.


You mean safe zones for black people where whites aren't allowed? Or like Harvard's segregated graduation ceremony?

It's ridiculous. I agree.



The ceremony isn't segregated. Some black students are having a separate ceremony that the university has no involvement in whatsoever.

You must've just forgotten to mention that part.

Kinda not the same thing as segregation in any way at all, considering segregation was legally enforced.

But good try, I guess?

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: XUL]
    #25582195 -

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/harvard-segregated-graduation/

African American Student Union (AASU) said:
Black Commencement is open to ALL students regardless of race, color or creed. This is not about segregation, but a celebration of the African Diaspora at Harvard. All students attending Black Commencement will also attend other commencement ceremonies.


Too bad you thought it was segregated, looks like they would've welcomed you. I'm sure you were just dying to go.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25582200 -

BANANA.MAN said:
relic said:
banana.man, are you of the opinion that an approximate 20 year old someone who killed two people nearly five decades ago (in an abhorrent fashion, imo), who does her time behind bars, admits guilt, does not participate in violence in the ensuing ~ 50 years, and later participates in humanitarian causes is an irredeemably bad person?  still a terrorist (in your description)?

can nobody be rehabilitated, forgiven, and wholly accepted back into civil society?



she didnt serve her time. she was freed during a prisoner exchange with a marxist terrorist organization.

why did she neglect to mention her convictions if she came clean and was rehabillitated?



she served ten years.  yes, it was less than her initial sentence, but she served ten years nonetheless and i'd challenge you to serve a decade in prison and say that's not serving time.

she neglected to mention her convictions because she wanted to be an american citizen and knew it would preclude her from doing so. 

also, from wiki, RE admitting guilt:
Quote:
In a 1980 interview she confessed to participating in two bombings with PFLP


edit: see page 46 iirc in this document for more information about her alleged torture and confession

i noticed that you failed to answer the meat of my post.  you've been pretty thorough with both our and your/shiva's back and forth, but glaringly neglected to this time.

Edited by relic (10/31/18 04:21 PM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: relic]
    #25582542 -

relic said:
and maybe i missed this somewhere, but do you consider anti-zionism, one who is an anti-zionist, to be any different than antisemitism, an antisemitic person?


i dont think its necessarily anti semitic to oppose zionism. it is however anti semitic to say that jews arent allowed to live there at all and to strive to kill all jews who live there like palestinian terrorist organizations.

but less obviously, its anti semitic to apply a double standard to israel and Palestinian areas. in order to make the case, as anti zionists often do, that israel is the oppressive bad guy you would have to be biased against israel. the palestinians elect terrorist organizations like hamas who digs tunnels into israel to kidnap children and who fire rockets from civillian areas like hospitals so israel cant retaliate without looking like the bad guy. they sacrifice their own civillian's lives. a jew in east jerusalem is in serious danger. an arab in west jerusalem is better off than in a palestinian area. the truth is israel is much more free than anywhere else in the area, one of the largest political parties is the joined arab list which openly calls for the abolishment of israel.

the BDS movement full of radicalism. it is pushed strongly by an organization called students for justuce in palestine. here is the founder calling for an intifada in the USA




he has shared some really anti semitic stuff on twitter. this looks like something connoisseur would post.

www.google.ca/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/berkeley-lecturer-apologizes-for-retweet-college-condemned-as-anti-semitic/amp/

the SJP legitimately promotes terrorism.

unitedwithisrael.org/watch-what-do-students-for-justice-in-palestine-really-support/

they are a very radical group.

Edited by BANANA.MAN (10/31/18 08:38 PM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: relic]
    #25582549 -

relic said:
BANANA.MAN said:
relic said:
banana.man, are you of the opinion that an approximate 20 year old someone who killed two people nearly five decades ago (in an abhorrent fashion, imo), who does her time behind bars, admits guilt, does not participate in violence in the ensuing ~ 50 years, and later participates in humanitarian causes is an irredeemably bad person?  still a terrorist (in your description)?

can nobody be rehabilitated, forgiven, and wholly accepted back into civil society?



she didnt serve her time. she was freed during a prisoner exchange with a marxist terrorist organization.

why did she neglect to mention her convictions if she came clean and was rehabillitated?



she served ten years.  yes, it was less than her initial sentence, but she served ten years nonetheless and i'd challenge you to serve a decade in prison and say that's not serving time.

she neglected to mention her convictions because she wanted to be an american citizen and knew it would preclude her from doing so. 

also, from wiki, RE admitting guilt:
Quote:
In a 1980 interview she confessed to participating in two bombings with PFLP


edit: see page 46 iirc in this document for more information about her alleged torture and confession

i noticed that you failed to answer the meat of my post.  you've been pretty thorough with both our and your/shiva's back and forth, but glaringly neglected to this time.


you asked if someone who addmitted guilt and served her time should be considered redeemed.

and i pointed out that she lied about her convictions twice over the span of several years. and that she didnt serve her time. yeah she served ten years. she wasnt exactly let out for good behaviour. a terrorist organization traded their own prisoners for her release. she got out because of continued terrorist activity. doesnt point to her learning her lesson.


can people change and be rehabilitated? yes. do i trust this individual? no.

Edited by BANANA.MAN (10/31/18 09:38 PM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: xFrockx]
    #25582551 -

xFrockx said:
If anything a return to segregation should be labeled "regressive" rather than conservative or progressive.


what are you responding to?

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25582688 -

Ah my bad, didn't mean to reply to you. I guess it was more towards the general argument of what to call things being just between social conservative and social progressive. There's people who want things to stay the way they are, people who want things to change to new things, and then there's people who want to go back to the way things were, social regressives.

Maybe making the discussion less binary would help avoid the polarization.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: XUL]
    #25582692 -

XUL said:
xFrockx said:
If anything a return to segregation should be labeled "regressive" rather than conservative or progressive.


You mean safe zones for black people where whites aren't allowed? Or like Harvard's segregated graduation ceremony?

It's ridiculous. I agree.



You mean like using a small dog to pick up your socks in the morning?

If so, ABSOLUTELY.


Unless you mean some vague jab towards social events that don't matter to me. In that case I would say no, I don't agree.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 2
    #25583493 -

BANANA.MAN said:
relic said:
and maybe i missed this somewhere, but do you consider anti-zionism, one who is an anti-zionist, to be any different than antisemitism, an antisemitic person?


i dont think its necessarily anti semitic to oppose zionism. it is however anti semitic to say that jews arent allowed to live there at all and to strive to kill all jews who live there like palestinian terrorist organizations.


to the underlined, i respond with: well, duh...but i don't mean it in a shitty way toward you.

we're getting way off topic for this thread so apologies to the OP.  but you're one of the few people here who holds positions on the far/opposite end of the spectrum from me that can seemingly have a discussion without consistently resorting to bad faith arguments in the form of hyperbolic rhetoric exaggeration & outright lies...hence my continuation.

BANANA.MAN said:
but less obviously, its anti semitic to apply a double standard to israel and Palestinian areas. in order to make the case, as anti zionists often do, that israel is the oppressive bad guy you would have to be biased against israel.


as an antizionist, i just point out the example of israel pushing residents out of houses, razing neighborhoods, and forcibly taking the real estate in order to show that israel doesn't have completely clean hands, either.  we can look at the specific example of the Rafah neighborhood and what israel did to over 16,000 residents--in violation of international law--as a red handed act.  i acknowledge that israel had their reasons for this operation, but the manner in which it was performed is a huge issue imo.

in pointing out such an example, there is no double standard, no antisemitism, and no bias against israel needed or shown by me.  as such i think you paint it in an unfair color when saying that it's inherently antisemitic and/or biased when finding israel oppressive in certain ways.

i definitely agree that palestinians have issues in their house, just for the record.

anyway, i'm going to try not to derail this thread anymore.  appreciate the responses.


edited to strike a redundancy

Edited by relic (11/01/18 07:23 AM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: relic]
    #25583840 -

first of all israel was defending thenselves from terrorism. i think its ok for people to defend thenselves from an organization that builds tunnels to kidnap israeli children. second, why dont we hear about egypt razing homes in sinai for the same reason? why dont we hear about hamas razing homes to build a religious center. or palestinians destroying houses because they would rather see it gone than have a settler move in. seems biased to me.

sorry if it seems like im derailing i just want to point out that there is anti semitism all over. alot of people dont realize that.

edit: you have been very civil aswell. its nice for a change.

Edited by BANANA.MAN (11/01/18 11:43 AM)

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #25584963 -

BANANA.MAN said:
first of all israel was defending thenselves from terrorism. i think its ok for people to defend thenselves from an organization that builds tunnels to kidnap israeli children.


i acknowledged that israel had their reasons for conducting the operation and agree that nationstates can and should take reasonable action to protect their citizens.  having said that, i'm of the opinion that the manner in which israel carried out the operation was, at times, both unlawful and inhumane.

Quote:
...most of the destruction in Rafah occurred along the Israeli-controlled border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt.  During regular nighttime raids and with little or no warning, Israeli forces used armored Caterpillar D9 bulldozers to raze blocks of homes at the edge of the camp, incrementally expanding a "buffer zone" that is currently up to three hundred meters wide.  The pattern of destruction strongly suggests that Israeli forces demolished homes wholesale, regardless of whether they posed a specific threat, in violation of international law.  In most of the cases Human Rights Watch found the destruction was carried out in the absence of military necessity.


but, i make no judgement whether or not Human Rights Watch is correct in their assessment that, "In most of the cases Human Rights Watch found the destruction was carried out in the absence of military necessity."  I don't possess the knowledge necessary to determine whether there was military necessity or not.


BANANA.MAN said:
second, why dont we hear about egypt razing homes in sinai for the same reason? why dont we hear about hamas razing homes to build a religious center. or palestinians destroying houses because they would rather see it gone than have a settler move in. seems biased to me. 


i have heard about these things and think of them in the same (or at least similar) way as i do israel's actions.  i can't speak for anyone else, though, and i can see that if you haven't heard about them in the mainstream news then you could infer bias; it's just not universal in my opinion. 


BANANA.MAN said:
sorry if it seems like im derailing i just want to point out that there is anti semitism all over. alot of people dont realize that.

edit: you have been very civil aswell. its nice for a change.


i share the derailing blame, for sure.

have a good one.

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Re: Is the left or the right more violent? [Re: relic] * 3
    #25584990 -

You guys should keep going, I don't care.

I think this thread has proved the initial point I wanted to make by now

In 7 pages, we can collectively come up with very few specific instances of violence carried out by people on the left, whereas the right undeniably has a shit ton.

carry on

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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