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It's a matter of time before a software engineer is criminally charged for a sex robot malfunction
    #25577737 -

Original clickbait title was "matter of time till ... charged for rape over sex robot malfunction"; changed cause nobody is gonna read my whole thing

With the liability thing for self driving cars and programmers, it's relevant now more than ever.

If a bridge collapses, the civil engineer gets locked up. The therac 25 medical device radiated someone to death but the medical software company got off. Now tho, our field is growing up. Accreditation is a thing and we will have a professional engineer specialty test soon (already brushing up for my FE).

So seriously, it's a matter of time. I thought it would be neat to discuss accountability in the age of AI.

:sun: Should a drone be able to make the decision to kill an IDed target on its own?

:sun: Should a software architect be held accountable if a sex robot malfunctions and doesn't stop?

:sun: What if Iran uses Stanford's deep learning gaydar to weed out homosexuals for prosecution?

:sun: Are programmers accountable or are the companies? Or should the architect be?

I think we are getting to a point where regulated fields (the only non research ones I've worked in--it's been interesting seeing this firsthand) are going to be just like that bridge where a licensed professional engineer had to review all the plans and sign off.

Here's the thing though: software's behavior faces almost no constraints compared to physical contraptions and structures.

Software is limitlessly complex. Software is the most complicated artifact humanity has created in terms of intricacy and branching factor of possible behaviors.

This isn't as easy as some think.

And I dont know if anyone here is into machine learning or how much of a notion the public has about how it works and supervised/unsupervised, but this is even more interesting too...

Classically, a developer creates a system by specifying behavior, but in cases like machine learning, you are often settings up systems to make associations and then telling them what's good and bad to get them to determine what to do when. Will it be like if your dog bites someone, you're responsible? Or are these machines their own agents already?
This is way way way oversimplified but even surface-level consideration of simple hypothetical cases for new AI tech, especially deep neural networks and others that really obscure the programming and specification of the behavior.

we might literally end up with pcourt cases that use being responsible for your dog biting someone else as a precedent for a badly trained system

Edited by st1llnox (11/01/18 09:06 PM)

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: st1llnox]
    #25577751 -

Quote:
Should a drone be able to make the decision to kill an IDed target on its own?


No, but that's a moral answer. It's not like the U.S. doesn't kill without positive IDs anyway, so in reality the answer will be yes.

Quote:
Should a software architect be held accountable if a sex robot malfunctions and doesn't stop?


Yes.

Quote:
What if Iran uses Stanford's deep learning gaydar to weed out homosexuals for prosecution?


Social Darwinism.

Quote:
Are programmers accountable or are the companies? Or should the architect be?


Yes. All are accountable.

Whether or not it's like training a dog is irrelevant. Someone made it and decided to release it into the world. If it fucks up, it's their fault. It's really that simple. The real problems start when the damn thing can reprogram itself. Then it's its own thing entirely.


--------------------
Wild Pleurotus Ostreatus - My First Grow Log!

For those of you who :pm:'d me about Paul Stamets silence on portabellos: bodhisatta graciously presents a real answer.

Edited by Zaid (10/30/18 02:00 AM)

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: Zaid]
    #25577775 -

maybe they could avoid being held liable by putting a warning on the box. but i think having a label that says "may cause accidental rape" might scare away potential customers so i dont know if they would go for that.

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: st1llnox]
    #25577777 -

Paul Bunyan is the man!  People shouldn't do evil things!


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: Cherk]
    #25577782 -

Quote:
but i think having a label that says "may cause accidental rape" might scare away potential customers so i dont know if they would go for that.


It's not a bug, it's a feature. It's not a disclaimer, it's a selling point.


--------------------
Wild Pleurotus Ostreatus - My First Grow Log!

For those of you who :pm:'d me about Paul Stamets silence on portabellos: bodhisatta graciously presents a real answer.

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: Zaid]
    #25577851 -

Quote:
if a bridge collapses, the civil engineer gets locked up


Criminal liability for professional malpractice is almost unheard of in this country. You made that up. Unless your errors were intentional, it would be very hard to prosecute.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (10/30/18 03:41 AM)

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: koods]
    #25577861 -

koods said:
Quote:
if a bridge collapses, the civil engineer gets locked up


Criminal liability for professional malpractice is almost unheard of in this country. You made that up. Unless your errors were intentional, it would be very hard to prosecute.


Engineers are talking, koods :wink:

It's standard; the person who signs off saying it's safe can be liable.

Quote:
Aftermath
The engineers employed by Jack D. Gillum and Associates who had "approved" the final drawings were found culpable of gross negligence, misconduct and unprofessional conduct in the practice of engineering by the Missouri Board of Architects, Professional Engineers, and Land Surveyors. Even though they were acquitted of all crimes that they were initially charged with, they all lost their respective engineering licenses in the states of Missouri, Kansas and Texas and their membership with ASCE.[22] Although the company of Jack D. Gillum and Associates was discharged of criminal negligence, it lost its license to be an engineering firm.[20]

At least $140 million was awarded to victims and their families in both judgments and settlements in subsequent civil lawsuits; a large amount of this money was from Crown Center Corporation, a wholly owned subsidiary of Hallmark Cards which was the owner of the hotel real estate. As is the practice of many hoteliers, Hyatt operated the hotel for a fee as a management company, and did not own the building. Life and health insurance companies are likely to have absorbed even larger uncompensated losses in policy payouts.[23][24]

The Hyatt collapse remains a classic model for the study of engineering ethics and errors, as well as disaster management.[25] As an engineer of record for the Hyatt project, Jack D. Gillum (1928–2012)[26] occasionally shared his experiences at engineering conferences in the hope of preventing future mistakes.[27]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse#Investigation


--------------------
Back, bitches.
st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom
Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet?
st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam
Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
:crankey: IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! :awesomenod:
Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here :hug: :sun:

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: st1llnox] * 1
    #25577885 -

Ban all thinking machines. Mentats only.


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Trade List


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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: saythatagain]
    #25577951 -

Kill all humans


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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT


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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is criminally charged for all kinds of stuff [Re: st1llnox] * 5
    #25577991 -

Learn how to write less obnoxious posts.

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: st1llnox]
    #25578044 -

st1llnox said:
koods said:
Quote:
if a bridge collapses, the civil engineer gets locked up


Criminal liability for professional malpractice is almost unheard of in this country. You made that up. Unless your errors were intentional, it would be very hard to prosecute.


Engineers are talking, koods :wink:

It's standard; the person who signs off saying it's safe can be liable.


Your example doesn't actually conflict with what koods was saying. The engineers were not ultimately found to be criminally liable.

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: psi]
    #25578045 -

AKAIK that kind of liability is more about fines and licensing. Insurance.

Edited by larry.fisherman (10/30/18 08:48 AM)

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: Salomon]
    #25578400 -

Salomon said:
Kill all humans


Even better idea


--------------------
Trade List


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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: saythatagain] * 1
    #25578436 -

What if you just wanted the robot to give you a rim job but the robot sticks its entire fucking head up your anus... Is that a software issue or hardware?


--------------------
Beware of unearned wisdom.
  - Carl Jung

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: st1llnox] * 1
    #25578452 -

st1llnox said:
Engineers are talking, koods :wink:

It's standard; the person who signs off saying it's safe can be liable.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse#Investigation


They were acquitted of all charges in this example. Do you have an example of "If a bridge collapses, the civil engineer gets locked up"?  I would think jail time would be extremely rare. In fact, a designer of a dam that failed ended up being CEO of a global civil/environmental firm.


--------------------
I am just an atom in an ectoplasmic sea without direction or a reason to exist.
The anechoic nebula rotating in my brain is persuading me, contritely, to persist.

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: goslugsgo]
    #25584575 -

There are several cases where that happened and it was treated criminally.


I'm just echoing what the civil engineers I've worked for said, and with Software Engineering becoming a licensed engineering specialty like Civil is (basically we both take the FE and then a specialist test n years into your career or after m experience with x accreditation or y degree), I've heard this said by computer science professors at 2 major universities so far.

It's not part of the standard operating procedures obviously but this is the reality, just like if a doctor is negligent.

The Therac 25 happens again in 15 years, I would be comfortable betting money that there are criminal charges levied against those who signed off. As soon as they finish regulating the industry, it's going to be much more cut and dry.

Please refer to the OP for a version of the topic that has been lobotomized to better relate to the pub, or here for my original point:


This is all interesting anyway but again it's a matter of time until a software engineer (who is likely also an architect, and who is specifically not a rote developer) gets criminally charged because a sex robot failed to register withdrawn consent.


--------------------
Back, bitches.
st1lln0x: so i'm on weed, temazepam, adderall, dexedrine, dxm, dph, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, tryptophan, GABA, and kratom
Cavemen_savemen: st1lln0x, do you feel like a robot yet?
st1lln0x: I feel like a fucking Gundam
Click to friend me on Steam for Counter-Strike
:crankey: IS LIFE SKULLFUCKING YOU!? HAVE SOME FREE MORALE! :awesomenod:
Click if you want to feel you alone can do it! Click if you want to feel confident and beastly! Click if you want courage to let go and move on! And click the message if you need someone to talk to -- I'll understand, even if we "hate" each other on here :hug: :sun:

Edited by st1llnox (11/01/18 06:06 PM)

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: st1llnox]
    #25584906 -

st1llnox said:
This is all interesting anyway but again it's a matter of time until a software engineer (who is likely also an architect, and who is specifically not a rote developer) gets criminally charged because a sex robot failed to register withdrawn consent.


Why wouldn't the sex robot have a manual kill switch?


--------------------
I am just an atom in an ectoplasmic sea without direction or a reason to exist.
The anechoic nebula rotating in my brain is persuading me, contritely, to persist.

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: goslugsgo]
    #25584913 -

goslugsgo said:
st1llnox said:
This is all interesting anyway but again it's a matter of time until a software engineer (who is likely also an architect, and who is specifically not a rote developer) gets criminally charged because a sex robot failed to register withdrawn consent.


Why wouldn't the sex robot have a manual kill switch?


Have you ever had good head? It wouldn't matter, you wouldn't be able to switch it.


--------------------
Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul


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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: King Klick] * 1
    #25584971 -

Never make a sex robot that is stronger than you.

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Re: It's a matter of time before a software engineer is charged with rape over sex robot malfunctions [Re: st1llnox]
    #25585022 -

st1llnox said:
There are several cases where that happened and it was treated criminally.


I'm just echoing what the civil engineers I've worked for said, and with Software Engineering becoming a licensed engineering specialty like Civil is (basically we both take the FE and then a specialist test n years into your career or after m experience with x accreditation or y degree), I've heard this said by computer science professors at 2 major universities so far.

It's not part of the standard operating procedures obviously but this is the reality, just like if a doctor is negligent.

The Therac 25 happens again in 15 years, I would be comfortable betting money that there are criminal charges levied against those who signed off. As soon as they finish regulating the industry, it's going to be much more cut and dry.

Please refer to the OP for a version of the topic that has been lobotomized to better relate to the pub, or here for my original point:


This is all interesting anyway but again it's a matter of time until a software engineer (who is likely also an architect, and who is specifically not a rote developer) gets criminally charged because a sex robot failed to register withdrawn consent.



Do you have an example? This is your thread. You said if a bridge collapses the engineer gets locked up. You have yet to provide a single example.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (11/01/18 07:36 PM)

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