Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

qman said:

You're still NOT getting it, allowing tens of millions of illegals to live and work legally in the US HURTS American workers.

It doesn't matter if they were to pay more taxes, it doesn't make up for their use of benefits and the overall lower wages for ALL US workers.

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YOU'RE not getting it.  He explained he's NOT in favor of giving illegals a bunch of benefits, and he IS in favor of increased minimum wages.

qman said:

You do understand when there's more people competing for a limited number of jobs, it benefits the very rich because it lowers wages?  I don't think you understand this basic fact.

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You do understand that there's not a shortage of jobs right now based on the U6 umemployment rate?  I don't think you understand that basic fact.

qman said:

There is no scenario in which making illegals into legal workers being beneficial for US citizens, that's pipedream city.

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There are, and they've been explained to you countless times.  Perhaps you meant to say there is no scenario in which making illegals into legal workers makes American whiter?

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christopera said:

qman, you haven't even addressed the fact the these illegal workers are already here and working. Legitimizing them and taxing them, while still not providing them the services that citizens receive, does not hurt citizens. It adds revenue to the tax pool, it brings up average wages for everybody, and discourages the hiring of illegals for sub par wages because no illegal will want to work for those wages when there is a legal route to assure proper treatment. As is, and you have already pointed this out, business owners have lots of incentive to bring in and pay illegals to work because their wages are much cheaper than American citizens.

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The Ecstatic said:

Spoiler: its not about economics for people like qman

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qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

Spoiler: its not about economics for people like qman

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It's not about "cultural diversity and enrichment" for the elite when it comes to immigration.  It's about the economics.

The funny part is they sold people like you the idea that it's for your own good.  Why do you carry the bucket for the elite?

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christopera said:

Qman, the facts don’t support your claim.

Immigrants receive greatly reduced benefits. And they don’t file tax returns. Why would they? They don’t have a bank account so where they going to deposit the check? The IRS doesn’t send out cash.

As to your assumptions regarding wages and working under the table, lol. Go find some information to support that claim and present it.

The incentive is obvious. You don’t have to live in fear of jail time, deportation, or worse. Even if they made less money, they wouldn’t, it a small price to pay.

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The Ecstatic said:

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

Spoiler: its not about economics for people like qman

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It's not about "cultural diversity and enrichment" for the elite when it comes to immigration.  It's about the economics.

The funny part is they sold people like you the idea that it's for your own good.  Why do you carry the bucket for the elite?

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Lmao the capitalist nationalist blaming immigrants is telling me i'm the rube of the ruling class.

Nice try.

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Yes we get it, bring billions of poor people into the US/EU and then extract the wealth from the elite, and we can live in one big socialist utopia. 

VroomerMcZoomers said:

Under the FDR administration, working people saw a massive increase in their livelihood.

He didn't do it by kicking out immigrants.

It doesn't matter if you Americans do manage to kick out all the immigrants. Working people still won't get a fair shake.  The system is controlled by the super wealthy and they will make sure it continues to be a rip off for everyone but them for as long as that is the case.

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Quote:

Yet, the working class is getting a much smaller share today

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Quote:

VroomerMcZoomers said: 

For example, here in BC the public owns the main electricity company.  BC Hydro. 

Its a democratic socialist institution.  Owned collectively, through a DEMOCRATIC government, it's mission is to provide electricity to the province, gainful employment for its workers, and make a modest profit

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VroomerMcZoomers said:

Quote:

Yet, the working class is getting a much smaller share today

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Is this somehow relevant to FDR's new deal?  He's been dead for over 70 years.  His new deal has been dismantled piece by piece over that time.

All this just shows that regulating capitalism into being somewhat humane is just a temporary fix.  As long as you let private entities undemocratically control such vast swaths of the economy, they are going to have the means to manipulate their way out of said regulations.

Sorry if this seems like heresy,but democratic socialism, not social democracy, not 'free market capitalism' is the way. 

For example, here in BC the public owns the main electricity company.  BC Hydro. 

Its a democratic socialist institution.  Owned collectively, through a DEMOCRATIC government, it's mission is to provide electricity to the province, gainful employment for its workers, and make a modest profit which goes to the government, reducing the tax burden and providing revenue for public projects.

Compare that with a private utility.  It exists not to provide electricity or gainful employment.  It exists to make money.  Check California's Enron fiasco from years back.

Enron made money, Cali had brownouts and high bills.

Jesus Christ, it's really not so hard to understand all this.  But if you are bombarded with lies and misinformation from birth, raised by parents who have been indoctrinated the same way, I guess it can be hard.

Kind of like religion.

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VroomerMcZoomers said:

Quote:

Yet, the working class is getting a much smaller share today

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Is this somehow relevant to FDR's new deal?  He's been dead for over 70 years.  His new deal has been dismantled piece by piece over that time.

All this just shows that regulating capitalism into being somewhat humane is just a temporary fix.  As long as you let private entities undemocratically control such vast swaths of the economy, they are going to have the means to manipulate their way out of said regulations.

Sorry if this seems like heresy,but democratic socialism, not social democracy, not 'free market capitalism' is the way. 

For example, here in BC the public owns the main electricity company.  BC Hydro. 

Its a democratic socialist institution.  Owned collectively, through a DEMOCRATIC government, it's mission is to provide electricity to the province, gainful employment for its workers, and make a modest profit which goes to the government, reducing the tax burden and providing revenue for public projects.

Compare that with a private utility.  It exists not to provide electricity or gainful employment.  It exists to make money.  Check California's Enron fiasco from years back.

Enron made money, Cali had brownouts and high bills.

Jesus Christ, it's really not so hard to understand all this.  But if you are bombarded with lies and misinformation from birth, raised by parents who have been indoctrinated the same way, I guess it can be hard.

Kind of like religion.

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So because one company (Enron) out of thousands of publicly traded companies ended up being a scam and burned its shareholders, everything should be "owned collectively"?  That's not even an argument, please try again. 

"it's really not hard to understand all of this"

What you are advocating has already been attempted in the past and it failed.  Why is that?

"Kind of like religon"

I really don't know what you're talking about here. The EU is capitalistic and also has plenty of social services.  The US is capitalistic and has less social services, but it still has plenty relative to even 75 years ago. 

Where should people want to live instead?  The fact is that people from around the world still flock to the US/EU, what does that tell you?

VroomerMcZoomers said:

I was with you until you said the bc libs are hardly right wing.

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