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Hypnotism
    #25217727 -

Got into a really stupid debate with someone the other day.

They were arguing the benefits of hypnotism. And I know its nonsense... but they asked me if it helped anyone ever. So of course I said it has helped... but its still nonsense. They said if its helped then it should exist and be in the world. And of course they went on a personal example of how they felt "super calm and able to be led".

So I didn't really know how to continue shooting down hypnotism from there.

I mean... just because something that is total nonsense can help people cant possibly mean we shouldn't shoot it down?

Surely a positivity counselor could accomplish the same things and would be easier to spread the word around about it. Some people are super trapped in their bullshit and need a fake outlet like hypnotism though to open up? So I don't know. What do you guys think?

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25217862 -

Influencing a person to relax, talk, or perform some actions is definitely possible.

The power of suggestion has been shown to work very effectively in advertising.

I am not usually attracted to having people planting suggestions in my mind, but I have been hypnotized a couple of times:

Once when I was 11 years of age, another same aged camper hypnotized me to overcome my fear of water which had prevented me from learning swimming. He did this at the recreational swim period, so there were a few witnesses. Two years later I passed scuba diving courses.

Fifty years later, my dentist brother hypnotized me, in front of some family, into exploring a past life for which I think I made up a story about dying in a war, to amuse those around me, but who knows. My brother took the story as fact.

I might consider hypnosis again to discover the name of that 11 year old hypnotist,  to see what became of his life.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25221940 -

:lol: OBVIOUSLY, you don't know Jack! I've been a nationally board certified clinical hypnotherapist for 25 out of the 29 years that I've practiced hypnotherapy. At this point I hold Diplomate and Fellow status. I have been trained in 3 different schools, but Gerald Kein was my first and best instructor. "Bullshit" you say? I have eliminated symptoms that have plagued people for as long as 30 years, unresolved traumas originating from childhood rapes, near-drownings, abandoning parents, burglary invasions, medical emergencies and bad acid trips just to name some. Most of these traumatic events were long forgotten and repressed to the unconscious, yet while trapped in these formerly unavailable layers of the psyche, they 'festered' and generated a variety of physical and/or psychological symptoms. I recently eliminated a stutter in a 16 year old boy who has been stuttering since the age of 6. I spoke with him on 3 occasions after just 2 sessions and he no longer stutters. This is something that can't be faked obviously. This was my 4th stuttering case and 4th success (one was an opera singer who, typically, did not stutter when she sang).

You need to learn the difference between what is real and what is "bullshit."  Hypnotherapy is a viable treatment that has been recognized by the American Medical Association since 1958. If I work with complaints of physical pain I require a written note from a physician on a prescription pad or other identifying letterhead stating that it is safe to proceed, lest I mask painful symptoms and potentially cause the  inadvertent death of a subject. (e.g., masking headache pain when it is caused by an undiagnosed cerebral lesion, a tumor or an aneurism).

Whatever a "positivity counselor" is, ( :wtf: ) [s]he is not going to guide a subject into somnambulism, the 'working state of hypnosis,' usually called trance. All hypnosis is not mere suggestion. Trance is an almost pure isolation of Theta brain waves from an EEG perspective. Everyone who sleeps passes through Theta on the way into and out of Delta wave sleep. This is the state that hypnogogic and hypnopompic hallucinations occur in. Self-hypnotic techniques do not and cannot bring a subject deeply enough to perform an age regression and a hypnoanalysis, or analgesia.

Dr. James Braid, "Father of Modern Hypnotism" and the first true hypnotherapist devised techniques in the mid 19th century and before him Dr. James Esdaile, performed some 300 surgeries including limb amputations, prior to the discovery of the anesthetic chloroform, using hypnosis alone. Admittedly, only some 30% of Dr. Esdaile's patients experienced complete painlessness, but despite his lengthy and wearisome method for inducing trance, patients did not die of shock. Moreover, the unconscious can be asked to staunch the flow of blood (among other amazing otherwise autonomic functions). The conscious mind has no such capacity to do the things that an accessed and guided unconscious can.

You've got some learning to do. :yesnod:  Your misunderstanding reminds me of the false headlines and TV shows culled from such headlines (i.e., Law and Order: SVU, season 18, episode 18, 'Spellbound'), or this 1931 advertisement below. Possibly your knowledge of hypnosis comes from having gotten scared by the movie Get Out. :rofl2: Whatever it is, your opinion is patently wrong. :nono:



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25222007 -

Didn't see any of the movies or TV shows youre addressing. I know how annoying it can be when you think someone got their ideas from a specific show and you want to point it out... so I'm saying that first just to be kind :smile:


I said "positivity counselor" as an example. I'm assuming they exist.... I mean surely they do right? Lol. Theres seminars for that crap. The point I was making here was with hypnotism youre convincing that person to act a certain way and it could be done without dangling-a-watch-in-their-face style tactics.


And I get you want to shoot me down to protect your beliefs.... but try and explain what I'm trying to say so I can say it better.

I guarantee if you got me in a room with you and you did your bit.... I would laugh. Physically unable to not smile. I would be unable to be convinced. So no help would get through to me.

The people it works on... are gullible in some way. So it does help people.... but its still bullshit. See what I'm saying? Does that mean its fine if it helps people even if its bullshit?



And please.... dont think I'm trying to be mean. I'm trying to be honest. I am a HUGE pusher of positive thinking and the power of belief. Just telling yourself something can actually change how you think.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25225737 -

I do not care if you're intending to be  "mean" or not. I'm not protecting a "belief," hypnosis is not a "belief," it is a state of mind characterized by Theta waves at a range of 4 - 7 Hz or CPS. The term hypnosis term coined by the 19th century physician, James Braid, based on the Greek god of sleep, Hypnos (even though hypnosis is not sleep). You have attempted to debate something you don't know anything about yet. You perceive the process as some ego battle with another person. Obviously, nobody goes into hypnosis against their will. I receive a fee for my efforts, and I do not waste pro bono sessions on unwilling subjects. I can guide into hypnosis anyone who wants to enter the state, from children in single digit years to a recent 91 year old Holocaust survivor. Everyone enters hypnosis on the way into and out of deep sleep (Delta wave EEG activity), it is not something that is imposed on another, it is a state of consent.

Hypnosis is not about "convincing," nor is it a "belief." I saw a PhD in finance today, schooled in Europe. I recently saw a mathematics professor. I have treated physicians and lawyers. These people were not "gullible," it is you who is gullible. If you didn't glean your false notions about hypnosis from the film I named, you must have gotten it from comic strips or cartoons! Plus, your choice of vocabulary by using the word "bullshit" for something you do not understand says more about you than it does about the practice of hypnosis. :lol:  The word "bullshit" carries the meaning of lie, fabrication, and nonsense. Hypnosis is none of these things, it is a state of mind that is isolated by techniques and then utilized (ideally) by a trained and experience psychotherapist who belongs to any number of mental health disciplines i.e., psychiatry, psychology, counseling, marriage & family therapy, social work, psychiatric nursing, etc.).

You've just had your first lesson about hypnosis by a PhD clinician in one of those disciplines, and a former adjunct professor who taught graduate school in an established university. These procedures continues to amaze me, and while you do not have any real frame of reference with regard to it, hypnosis/hypnotherapy/hypnoanalysis still requires serious minds to separate it in the public mentality from both stage hypnosis for entertainment, and from unscrupulous charlatans. These have no business working with troubled people but do so because the practice is not sufficiently regulated by law or by professional ethics. Either take the lesson and learn from it, or play mind-games and remain inarticulate on the matter. If you're not here to learn or teach, then ask yourself why you're even here. :shrug: I'm here to enhance the general psychospiritual climate of the forums I've been frequenting for the last 19 years. Hopefully I will have left them in a condition even more helpful to others than when I first arrived. It's still a cool venue for intelligent discussion.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25226583 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
I do not care if you're intending to be  "mean" or not. I'm not protecting a "belief," hypnosis is not a "belief," it is a state of mind characterized by Theta waves at a range of 4 - 7 Hz or CPS. The term hypnosis term coined by the 19th century physician, James Braid, based on the Greek god of sleep, Hypnos (even though hypnosis is not sleep). You have attempted to debate something you don't know anything about yet. You perceive the process as some ego battle with another person. Obviously, nobody goes into hypnosis against their will. I receive a fee for my efforts, and I do not waste pro bono sessions on unwilling subjects. I can guide into hypnosis anyone who wants to enter the state, from children in single digit years to a recent 91 year old Holocaust survivor. Everyone enters hypnosis on the way into and out of deep sleep (Delta wave EEG activity), it is not something that is imposed on another, it is a state of consent.

Hypnosis is not about "convincing," nor is it a "belief." I saw a PhD in finance today, schooled in Europe. I recently saw a mathematics professor. I have treated physicians and lawyers. These people were not "gullible," it is you who is gullible. If you didn't glean your false notions about hypnosis from the film I named, you must have gotten it from comic strips or cartoons! Plus, your choice of vocabulary by using the word "bullshit" for something you do not understand says more about you than it does about the practice of hypnosis. :lol:  The word "bullshit" carries the meaning of lie, fabrication, and nonsense. Hypnosis is none of these things, it is a state of mind that is isolated by techniques and then utilized (ideally) by a trained and experience psychotherapist who belongs to any number of mental health disciplines i.e., psychiatry, psychology, counseling, marriage & family therapy, social work, psychiatric nursing, etc.).

You've just had your first lesson about hypnosis by a PhD clinician in one of those disciplines, and a former adjunct professor who taught graduate school in an established university. These procedures continues to amaze me, and while you do not have any real frame of reference with regard to it, hypnosis/hypnotherapy/hypnoanalysis still requires serious minds to separate it in the public mentality from both stage hypnosis for entertainment, and from unscrupulous charlatans. These have no business working with troubled people but do so because the practice is not sufficiently regulated by law or by professional ethics. Either take the lesson and learn from it, or play mind-games and remain inarticulate on the matter. If you're not here to learn or teach, then ask yourself why you're even here. :shrug: I'm here to enhance the general psychospiritual climate of the forums I've been frequenting for the last 19 years. Hopefully I will have left them in a condition even more helpful to others than when I first arrived. It's still a cool venue for intelligent discussion.



You can personally attack me all you want... but telling me you've studied something for 20 years doesn't an argument make. Nor times where you had PHD's come in.

And I dont have to go down to these martial arts schools to know their no-touch karate moves are bullshit. Or these monks who claim to be able to set things on fire with their mind. I know delusion exists and I know it can defeat even the intelligent.

If you wanna say you are "calming" people and then talking to them about stuff. Sure. That makes sense.

But to suggest you are doing anything else is nonsense. And the ones that do believe you are doing it to them.... are gullible or liars.


Additionally I find it interesting how you go on rants and are so aggressive / defensive of me calling something bullshit that the majority of the world thinks is bullshit including scientists and shit.

Its not like I'm trying to debunk counseling or therapy.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227323 -

over-reacting.

yes Hypnotism links folklore with science in an unusual but effective way, and those immersed in it will use words that trigger the most dogged materialists (myself included), but people are people.

Mark has from time to time provided his resume/record of deeds to help people understand where he is coming from, and I have learned that he is very trustworthy.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227351 -

You're clearly just not informed on this issue and if you want to believe your uneducated assumption is the truth, this thread is not going to progress in any direction. Hypnotherapy is widely recognized as an effective form of therapy. Your ranting sounds as absurd as if you were to say, "Everyone knows orthodontists are bullshit."


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227489 -

Have you read the research on hypnotism or do you know it’s ‘bullshit’ just because you know?

I ask because you haven’t backed up your assertion with any evidence.


For example, I’m curious what you have to say about the functional brain imaging studies and your hypothesis that the only effect of hypnotism is ‘calming’ people.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227558 -

You are not in a position to debunk anything, you're not James Randy and even he would know better about hypnosis than you do. :lol: This is the end of any discussion on my end with you. You are just ridiculously recalcitrant and uninformed. I'd be surprised if you were not a Trump supporter. You have no knowledge and therefore no understanding of the unconscious or its dynamics. You haven't studied for 20 years or you'd be conversant with the truth.

"...the majority of the world thinks is bullshit including scientists and shit."  This sentence alone illustrates puerility of expression. You don't know what the majority of anyone thinks (nobody does), and you surely have no knowledge of the literature on hypnotism from modernity (Mesmer, Charcot, Freud, Jung) post-modernity (Erickson, Boyne, Elman, Kein, Banyan) back through ancient Indian fakir traditions, Siberian, North American, and MesoAmerican traditions, Delphic Narco-hypnosis, or the priests of Egypt and magickal traditions, all of which utilized trance inductions for their own ends.

Meanwhile, I have a client arriving soon for her first hypnosis session, referred by her brother who has obviously and enthusiastically recommended the treatment. Word-of-mouth has kept me in the practice since 1989 and if anything is found to be laughable it would be your clear error and refusal to learn by hundreds of people who have lost their symptoms and re-gained control of their lives. So ponder being laughed at by hundreds of people from the age of 10 to the age of 91. :lol: :rofl2: :rofl: :yesnod:  and millions of people world-wide who know first-hand that you don't know Jack! I personally find no humor whatsoever in insistent ignorance of known facts. Since you choose to remain incapable of correction, ¡Adios! :bye:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25227608 -

Oh you sure told me! Woooo. Have fun at your fake practice conning people out of their money.

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227634 -

Hypnotism is one of those things that if you want it to be real, it is.

Please just bring forth some actual scientific evidence that hypnotism is false, I want to know your source. I cannot be hypnotized because I too am a skeptic, but I have definitely seen other people in a state of opened inner being, so I am also skeptical of my own understanding.


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Link List

Most teks have too much bullshit. These methods by bod do not.

Edited by Blue Wrench (05/25/18 10:54 AM)

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Blue Wrench]
    #25227655 -

Blue Wrench said:
Hypnotism is one of those things that if you want it to be real, it is.

Please just bring forth some actual scientific evidence that hypnotism is false, I want to know your source. I cannot be hypnotized because I too am a skeptic, but I have definitely seen other people in a state of opened inner being, so I am also skeptical of my own understanding.


Those no-touch karate masters??

It only works if you believe it.

So by that logic.... no-touch karate is real.


And I've said this whole time you have to be gullible or a liar for it to work.

So whats the problem here? Lol.

And my issue was trying to put it down into words.... that just because it helps people.... should that make it ok?

I mean we are spreading that cult-style susceptibility dont you think? This is the kinda thinking that can make someone join a cult because they believe in this stuff.

I mean if I said I was able to cleanse brains by rubbing temples. And I got word of mouth to artificially go around and have people claim its real. And I got a few actual people in and I fixed their various mental issues by rubbing their temples. And I just have to say part of the process was gently talking to them and relaxing them and letting them relax and get comfortable... and replicate this "hypnosis theta(n*) level". Get some scientific evidence to back up that they are in this state. Can I open a practice called temple rub cleanse? Is that how it works?


Also my last reply was to bait him just for fun. Lol maybe I'm a dick tonight.


*CwutIdidThar?

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227697 -

Still no sources. Here is an example.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201301/the-truth-about-hypnosis


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Link List

Most teks have too much bullshit. These methods by bod do not.

Edited by Blue Wrench (05/25/18 11:23 AM)

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Blue Wrench]
    #25227711 -

Actually I changed my mind, thank you. I now believe hypnotism works thanks to the research I felt obligated to do.

Edited by Blue Wrench (05/25/18 11:27 AM)

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25227755 -

redgreenvines said:
over-reacting.

yes Hypnotism links folklore with science in an unusual but effective way, and those immersed in it will use words that trigger the most dogged materialists (myself included), but people are people.

Mark has from time to time provided his resume/record of deeds to help people understand where he is coming from, and I have learned that he is very trustworthy.


:hug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Lion]
    #25227763 -

Lion said:
You're clearly just not informed on this issue and if you want to believe your uneducated assumption is the truth, this thread is not going to progress in any direction. Hypnotherapy is widely recognized as an effective form of therapy. Your ranting sounds as absurd as if you were to say, "Everyone knows orthodontists are bullshit."


:thumbup:  :toast:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Blue Wrench]
    #25227766 -

Blue Wrench said:
Hypnotism is one of those things that if you want it to be real, it is.

Please just bring forth some actual scientific evidence that hypnotism is false, I want to know your source. I cannot be hypnotized because I too am a skeptic, but I have definitely seen other people in a state of opened inner being, so I am also skeptical of my own understanding.


Those no-touch karate masters??

It only works if you believe it.

So by that logic.... no-touch karate is real.


And I've said this whole time you have to be gullible or a liar for it to work.

So whats the problem here? Lol.

And my issue was trying to put it down into words.... that just because it helps people.... should that make it ok?

I mean we are spreading that cult-style susceptibility dont you think? This is the kinda thinking that can make someone join a cult because they believe in this stuff.

I mean if I said I was able to cleanse brains by rubbing temples. And I got word of mouth to artificially go around and have people claim its real. And I got a few actual people in and I fixed their various mental issues by rubbing their temples. Can I open a practice called temple rub cleanse? Is that how it works? And I just have to say part of the process was gently talking to them and relaxing them


Also my last reply was to bait him just for fun. Lol maybe I'm a dick tonight.
Blue Wrench said:
Still no sources. Here is an example.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201301/the-truth-about-hypnosis



Yep saw that in the first google search I did at the start of this post =-D


Stilllllll bullshit =-D

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227775 -

Am I trapped here in a never-ending cycle of people saying it is real because some people are susceptible to it and then me responding with its not real because some people are just gullible?

Putting in various "Dumbass!" "Trump supporter!" and what not in there as we go

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Re: Hypnotism [Re: Stomachpain]
    #25227875 -

Holding a negative view towards something without reason is just as irrational as holding positive view towards something without reason.


What part of the theory of hypnotism do you disagree with? Obviously there are many claims made about hypnotism. You seem to agree with at least the claim that the practice may help people (in some way you've yet to define), and you seem to agree that it may calm people.

So if I understand you correctly, there are at least a couple claims about hypnotism that you agree with.

But you've also said that it's "total nonsense". So if I'm understanding that statement correctly, you strongly disagree with what you think are the core ideas of the theory of hypnotism, however since there are many different theories of what hypnotism is and how it works, you leave it up to the reader to define what you think those core ideas are and what you disagree with. This is an unhelpful way to make an argument, because it lacks clarity and is so vague as to be meaningless.

Even if you had defined what exactly it is you disagree with, or if we could reasonably be expected to infer what you are disagreeing with, you've given zero reasons to support your argument.


Also, if you are trying to learn about hypnotism, or share your views about hypnotism, your use of inflammatory language ("bullshit", "total nonsense") is likely to make communication more difficult, because it may cause people to respond in a defensive or correspondingly provocative manner.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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