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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24236340 -

Or the Telegraph, if you prefer:

Isil manufacturing its own chemical weapons, warns watchdog chief


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24236341 -

Both of those stories are about "rudimentary" chemical weapons made from industrial chemicals....Not Sarin.

Interestingly, however, the second link does say, "The Islamic State is not the only actor in Syria to carry out chemical weapons’ strikes: The Syrian government has conducted many more such attacks."

So, this begs the question:  Do YOU trust the New York Times?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Enlil]
    #24236352 -

Does the New York Times believe the New York Times?

NYT Retreats on 2013 Syria-Sarin Claims

Hard to know what to believe anymore.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Brian Jones]
    #24236354 -

Brian Jones said:
I have nearly no knowledge of the hard sciences. A read a recent article that says sarin can be made in a day if you have the ingredients and apparatus but they didn't say anything about how hard they are to obtain.


Well, the only confirmed case of sarin being manufactured by a non-state is the Japan Aum Shinrikyo attack.  They built a dedicated 3 story facility to make it, and they couldn't make nearly enough to carry out this attack.  Rebels are making it in secret while fighting a war?  Not likely.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24236360 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Hard to know what to believe anymore. 


If you're looking to believe in something, you're probably going about it all wrong.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Enlil]
    #24236381 -

Enlil said:
the only confirmed case of sarin being manufactured by a non-state is the Japan Aum Shinrikyo attack.  They built a dedicated 3 story facility to make it, and they couldn't make nearly enough to carry out this attack.  Rebels are making it in secret while fighting a war?  Not likely.


Sarin is over 25 times more deadly than cyanide.  If it were sarin, these first responders (some of whom aren't wearing gloves or gas masks) lives would be endangered:






Enlil said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Hard to know what to believe anymore. 


If you're looking to believe in something, you're probably going about it all wrong.


Please tell me the right way to know what the truth is.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/12/17 03:37 PM)

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Enlil]
    #24236496 -

Enlil said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Hard to know what to believe anymore. 


If you're looking to believe in something, you're probably going about it all wrong.


Ain't that the truth. I yearn for the media days of my youth,  CBS, ABC and NBC cause they had to talk both sides for business reasons if nothing else. The proliferation of media outlets leaves all as ideological misfits.

      I still watch MSNBC and Rachel Maddow, but I know if I talk to a lot of people about it they think I'm nuts. Similarly when people condemn MSNBC but not Fox news I'm sure they're nuts.

      There is no political middle and its hard to determine how much this is a result of politics vs. media. I'm sure a scientific study would show the causal arrows going in both directions.

    We got the BBC and the Guardian, etc. but they will never be that big here.

    Personally I will go to my death as a Bill Maher 95% follower. He puts at least one conservative on every  show and as a leftist he is against radical Islam as much anyone.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Brian Jones]
    #24237053 -

has anyone floated the (conspiracy?) theory that the trump and putin camps agreed to something like the following:  trump and pooty-poot agree to give assad a few sarin bombs, force him to lob them as a little payback for all the russian support he received, while pooty-poot tells assad that "trump will warn us when he's going to toss a few dozen cruise missiles at an air base so you can mitigate the damage, but a couple jets and a couple of your low level military grunts are going to get destroyed"...all in the name of giving political cover to trump and putin's previous winky-wink handshake deals that some on the left have been breathing fire about for the last couple months?

it's pretty lolz and not something i espouse, but i thought about this (un)funny scenario last night as i lay in bed, unable to sleep.  i'm surprised none of the more fringe people have offered up such a scenario, no matter how unlikely.  then again i don't even know what the likely story is anymore when it comes to our gov't, much less others with which i'm even less familiar.

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: relic] * 1
    #24237230 -

My guess is that Putin is ratcheting up his misinformation crusade in order to keep tensions high in the Mideast therefore sending the crude prices up. An unstable Middle East always shoots crude up and that is what Russia needs to become relevant again on the world power scene. Problem is....higher oil prices also benefit many in Trumps cabinet...Tillerson for sure....who knows anything for sure, anymore?
I did read that the Russian military will provide the security for any investigation by UN....that's a lol.

Also, there was a rebel offensive a few miles from where Assad dropped the chem bombs that was close to taking over a strategic airfield in Hama from Assad's forces....This may have been retaliation from a man who has definitely used gas on his own people before.

Whoever pointed out that Isil has used gas on the battlefield was correct but only chlorine and mustard gas(much easier to obtain)...never sarin.


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Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

Albert Einstein

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Thayendanegea]
    #24237352 -

relic said:
has anyone floated the (conspiracy?) theory that the trump and putin camps agreed to something like the following:  trump and pooty-poot agree to give assad a few sarin bombs, force him to lob them as a little payback for all the russian support he received, while pooty-poot tells assad that "trump will warn us when he's going to toss a few dozen cruise missiles at an air base so you can mitigate the damage, but a couple jets and a couple of your low level military grunts are going to get destroyed"...all in the name of giving political cover to trump and putin's previous winky-wink handshake deals that some on the left have been breathing fire about for the last couple months?

it's pretty lolz and not something i espouse, but i thought about this (un)funny scenario last night as i lay in bed, unable to sleep.  i'm surprised none of the more fringe people have offered up such a scenario, no matter how unlikely.  then again i don't even know what the likely story is anymore when it comes to our gov't, much less others with which i'm even less familiar.


Thayendanegea said:
My guess is that Putin is ratcheting up his misinformation crusade in order to keep tensions high in the Mideast therefore sending the crude prices up. An unstable Middle East always shoots crude up and that is what Russia needs to become relevant again on the world power scene. Problem is....higher oil prices also benefit many in Trumps cabinet...Tillerson for sure....who knows anything for sure, anymore?
I did read that the Russian military will provide the security for any investigation by UN....that's a lol.

Also, there was a rebel offensive a few miles from where Assad dropped the chem bombs that was close to taking over a strategic airfield in Hama from Assad's forces....This may have been retaliation from a man who has definitely used gas on his own people before.

Whoever pointed out that Isil has used gas on the battlefield was correct but only chlorine and mustard gas(much easier to obtain)...never sarin.


These theories may be correct, or they may be false.  There's a lot of theories going around.  The question is what can be proven with evidence?

An investigation into the chemical attack should answer the question of whether or not chemical bombs were dropped by Assad's jets, or if Assad's jets bombed a rebel warehouse with chemicals in it.

The question is whether the investigation will be a Western investigation, or a joint international one.  If it's the former, I think we know what the answer will be.

A vote on this is expected today in the UN.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #24237473 -

Enlil said:
Of course Putin isn't always wrong.  Still, the theory that the rebels had sarin gas lying around isn't very credible.  Where did they get viable sarin from?  They certainly aren't manufacturing it.  And if they had it, why haven't they used it?

An investigation absolutely will get to the bottom of it, assuming Assad lets one happen.  He wasn't too cooperative with the investigation in 2013, though, so I don't suspect he will be this time.  Still, it won't be hard to identify a chemical warhead, if one was dropped.


Brian Jones said:
I have nearly no knowledge of the hard sciences. A read a recent article that says sarin can be made in a day if you have the ingredients and apparatus but they didn't say anything about how hard they are to obtain. My only thought was that's about a hundred thousand times easier than making and getting away with making nukes.

      I have no allusions about Assad, but really no allusions about us either.

    Just as a topic for speculation and argument what do you and the others think about the future of ISIS in Syria if Assad is in vs. out?


Sarin, along with most organophosphorus chemical agents, is mindbogglingly easy to make. A college student that has taken organic lab can successfully make sarin given the proper equipment. I'm not saying they will get it right the first time, but it does not require any particular skills past what you learn by reading Zubrick's Organic Chem Lab Survival Guide.

Most materials, or at least precursors to precursors, can be acquired OTC in large quantities with minimal suspicion. Large agricultural farming operations sometimes even use close relatives of the VX nerve gasses as pesticides (originally developed as such), and these pesticides can be readily converted into nerve gasses.

The biggest problem with making nerve gasses isn't making it, it's making it without gassing yourself. This problem is solved by either a vulcanized rubber suit (expensive~ish, maybe a thousand bucks, tops), or a disposable chemist (probably pretty easy in a war-ravaged country).

I still think it was a false flag. Most dictators have at least a few brain cells to rub together, or else they wouldn't be dictator, they'd be stunt henchman #3.

EDIT: Oh, and for those of you that are surprised as to how easily one can kill an entire city, botulin toxin is the deadliest substance known to man, classified as a biological weapon, given to rich people by the name of "botox", and can be turned into a metropolis-extinction event for approximately 200$, a pressure cooker, and two months for the bacteria to grow. It literally uses the same skillset as growing mushrooms.

If you dig around a bit in some old military files, the USAF has a now unused manual on how to practically produce botulin bioweapons with limited resources, aimed at commandos stuck behind enemy lines and Red Dawn type situations. Since it's an official manual, it's all public record.

Edited by Kryptos (04/12/17 03:10 PM)

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Kryptos]
    #24237519 -

Kryptos said:
Sarin, along with most organophosphorus chemical agents, is mindbogglingly easy to make. A college student that has taken organic lab can successfully make sarin given the proper equipment. I'm not saying they will get it right the first time, but it does not require any particular skills past what you learn by reading Zubrick's Organic Chem Lab Survival Guide.


Says you.  Do you have a credible source for this?  Everything I've read says otherwise, and we've only one time seen sarin successfully made by a non-state entity.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24237545 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The question is whether the investigation will be a Western investigation, or a joint international one.  If it's the former, I think we know what the answer will be.

A vote on this is expected today in the UN.


that's the key and i don't have any faith in there being an investigation which all of the involved parties can feel is valid.  there will be multiple investigations with varying conclusions.  unfortunately.

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Herbologist] * 2
    #24237775 -

Herbologist said:
Has Assad denied the attacks himself? Im sure he probably has but I haven't seen it anywhere




yes.  they only people claiming Assad of the attack is the US.  everyone else is calling for an investigation except the US, who JUST happened to decide to attack in response (not retaliation); too convenient to me


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: demiu5]
    #24238153 -

demiu5 said:
yes.  they only people claiming Assad of the attack is the US. 




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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Enlil]
    #24238374 -

Enlil said:
Kryptos said:
Sarin, along with most organophosphorus chemical agents, is mindbogglingly easy to make. A college student that has taken organic lab can successfully make sarin given the proper equipment. I'm not saying they will get it right the first time, but it does not require any particular skills past what you learn by reading Zubrick's Organic Chem Lab Survival Guide.


Says you.  Do you have a credible source for this?  Everything I've read says otherwise, and we've only one time seen sarin successfully made by a non-state entity.


Not really, past a cursory literature search. Using phosphorus trichloride, a common industrial chemical consumed by the thousands of tons per year, I just found a patent to make a precursor to sarin (methylphosphonyl difluoride) in 3 steps, which can then be converted into sarin (isopropyl alcohol) or cyclosarin (cyclohexanol) very simply using a williamson ether synthesis, or if you add a preparation step or two to the reagent side, soman. Pretty much the whole G-series.

Actually, having gone and clicked through wikipedia as well, you can figure it out pretty much from there.

I guess my point is, by the end of my second organic lab, I had been introduced to all of the mechanical skills needed to carry out said procedure. I could have put the theory together as soon as I figured out what Reaxys and Scifinder were at the end of organic 2 lecture.

Would I have been successful? Would I have survived? I don't know, I don't make weapons. Plus, this still leaves the question of delivery. You could get some empty 40ozs, fill them up, and tape three around a stick of dynamite. Then just find a plane or a glider, and make sure it airbursts. Or a subway tunnel.

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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Kryptos]
    #24238394 -

164 ounces of sarin killed 12 people in the Tokyo subway attacks.  To make that sarin, Aum Shinrikyo is said to have spent about $30 million.

Also this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-10-10/no-you-can-t-make-sarin-in-your-kitchen


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Enlil]
    #24238576 -

Enlil said:
164 ounces of sarin killed 12 people in the Tokyo subway attacks.  To make that sarin, Aum Shinrikyo is said to have spent about $30 million.

Also this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2013-10-10/no-you-can-t-make-sarin-in-your-kitchen



This belong in the conspiracy forum.


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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #24238593 -

You're probably right.

Also, you're getting more coherent every day.  I'm impressed.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Putin exposing chemical attack in Syria as a FALSE FLAG OPERATION TO BLAME ASSAD AND START WAR [Re: Psychonott]
    #24238908 -

This Freudian slip is pretty revealing.  I wonder if Spicer can keep his job after screwing up immediately after his Holocaust screw up:



"the attempts he's (the President's) making to destabilize the region"


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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