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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mel_gibson_4_prez]
    #24166138 -

mel_gibson_4_prez said:
I have a friend who has a 25 year old brother who still lives with his parents and doesn't work because he claims his depression and anxiety is too severe. She says he sleeps until the late afternoon daily, wakes up to eat, and goes back to bed. Part of my feels sorry for the guy since he is a really nice person from what I have seen of him, but the others part of me says he's just using mental illness as a cop out to remain lazy and not work. What are your opinions?  Hope this didn't make me sound like a dick lol


"Anxiety" covers a really broad swathe of conditions,
with various levels of severity
while someone may not interpret something like general anxiety to be an issue
something like OCD or PTSD is classed as an anxiety disorder as well

Personally, where my OCD causes me problems with employment is not with seeking and finding a job
but actually with managing to keep said job for any sort of meaningful period
at my worst point, was leaving for work an hour early and getting there and hour+ late
because it would take me ages of checking the door lock, walking away, walking back to check, repeating
or construction interrupting my regular path leading me to fixate on calculating a better one
rather than getting anywhere on time.
Within an actual work environment, the severity of my hand washing routine causes issues
because even if a company may have a policy against discrimination on the basis of mental health
a shift manager may in turn have no frame of reference for how crippling a fight with compulsions may be
and is more focused on whether or not the adequate amount of work is being done.

But also personally spend every day of my life practicing exposure therapy
in a hopes of overcoming my issues to a sufficient degree
to get back into the heart of society

Depression is an entirely different monster
one of the key characteristics with depression is a loss of motivation and focus
and when that is the result of chemical imbalance, the person may be unable to will his or her way through it
apparently depression actually can reach a level where the individual is too lacking in motivation to even commit suicide
which plays a role in why some antidepressants are so frequently associated with suicide
the person got out of their hole far enough to finally be willing to take his or her own life
rather than making it far enough to clear that second hurdle, as well

With that said, grew up in a culture where as children we would accuse each other of faking sick
to skip out on school for the day
though any time anyone was stuck home sick from school
he or she realized how shitty being stuck at home with daytime tv is
but that level of skepticism towards the health of others never goes away
because if it is possible for me to overcome, it should clearly be equally possible for you
and everyone needs to adhere to my metrics, because the only person ever deserving of slack
is me


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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mushboy]
    #24166156 -

It wasn't meant to be a loaded question, I understand the modern mental healthcare industry is vastly lacking in many way. I asked the question because some people do not believe mental illness to be on par with physical illness, and your personal opinion on this matter was relevant to how I will choose to answer.

No. Anger is not my first response to suicide. I find it hard to understand how  you are able to view depression as a disease, yet still view those who succumb to  their illness as cowards. Let me be clear here, illness is not a pass for all behaviour and I would condemn those who take the lives of others, but you appear to flatly condemn all those who commit suicide.

If you consider depression to be a disease, do you also consider suicide to be a final culmination of symptoms? If not, why? If so, then do you also consider the death of those with cancer to be similarly cowardly?

In my mind, belief in personal autonomy includes the right to suicide. In the spirit of harm reduction, this also leads me to support euthanasia. Although I may not support every individual decision for suicide, and in fact I may even condemn some, I also admit that there is enough nuance to the situation that I don't feel it appropriate to label suicide as either cowardly or brave.



But your gripe seems to be more than just against suicide, as the substance of your posts in this thread are insulting those unable to work due to anxiety or depression, not those who commit suicide.

Do you not think it would be more practical to aim your fury at a system which at best is unable to properly address rampant mental illness, at worst is actively culpable, than to focus on those who are sick? This is, of course, all assuming you do believe depression and anxiety to be legitimate illness.


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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24166172 -

i said people harming themselves or others because they are depressed is bullshit.

some people might not get angry at that but i do. that doesnt mean i have disdain for the person who is suffering.

i labeled it as cowardly because when i was depressed and thought about killing myself it was a selfish
and cowardly thing to even consider doing. HOWEVER, if i do not have to ability to make that decision it does
not negate the best suited word for the corresponding behavior. it only means i would need further help.
but i would still be a coward by the definition of the word.

'a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things'

life is dangerous and unpleasant. so to spare the depressed persons feelings we should label that as??
living challenged? or happiness impaired? or like in many 'cases' why not call it for what it truly is?
a coward acting like a bitch. the faking sick to get out of school i a decent analogy. i wonder how many
'depressed' people are self inflicting it just like kids faking sick to get out of responsibilities or
are we to believe once a person becomes an adult they are no longer capable or childish lying??



shivas.wisdom said:
all assuming you do believe depression and anxiety to be legitimate illness.


the same loaded question. not sure what YOUR point is but since you think i have a gripe i guess you need to keep asking.

peace dude. try not to focus on the BS.


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mushboy]
    #24166182 -

Let's try to keep this thread on track from here forward guys. Genuinely interested to see how others feel about this.

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mushboy]
    #24166201 -

mushboy said:
the best suited word for the corresponding behavior: 'a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things'


Courage and cowardice are not medical terms, and definitely not the best suited descriptors. Cancer is both dangerous and unpleasant, do you call those who don't manage to endure their disease cowards too?

The reason I am objecting to your stance is because I believe it is reflective of a common misconception regarding mental health, and attitudes like the one you are displaying are highly responsible for perpetuating an environment where  mental health is not a subject people are comfortable being open about; a fact which compounds the problems associated with mental health.

Feel free to pass judgement on individual cases you are personally involved with, but I don't think it is either appropriate or beneficial to place blanket condemnation. Zero tolerance policies rarely prove effective.


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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mel_gibson_4_prez]
    #24166202 -

Severe depression can keep you from not only working but doing anything enjoyable. Watching tv isn't not even an option. It feels like no matter where put yourself you cant get comfortable. You will cry but it wont release the feel good chems.  You will think of suicide constantly and desperately. Be thankful for your sense of wellbeing and before you judge other people realize you know almost absolutely nothing about their internal state and what lead up to that point.

EVERYONE IS VERY DIFFERENT DON'T PROJECT YOURSELF ON OTHERS OR
ASSUME DRUGS EFFECT THEM IN THE SAME WAY AS YOURSELF

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: Love_spirit]
    #24166208 -

maybe i should choose my words better because both of you are missing the bigger picture what i was saying.

what i was saying was in response to a post with little details about a person besides 2 things.

depressed and lives at home age 25. for those 2 general statements i made a general assessment of what
the OP was trying to say. i agree with him about kind of feeling sorry for him but at the same times its like
'wtf'

now if OP had given more details the convo would have had a different outcome. but since you wanted to make me
a poster child for this..
Quote:
The reason I am objecting to your stance is because I believe it is reflective of a common misconception regarding mental health.


but you are misinterpreting my stance dood. i in no way said anything about..
Quote:
perpetuating an environment where  mental health is not a subject people are comfortable being open about


thats how YOU feel about it but that is also placing 'blanket condemnation' on me for having what you think is
a different opinion. even though we basically agree.

and for this one..

Love_spirit said:
you know almost absolutely nothing about their internal state and what lead up to that point.


no shit. OP did not give details. so you dont know either.

back to OP to get back on track? whats up with him? anything you can share though would make the question less
generalized for the public?

like what lead to the depression and whatnot?? and believe me.. ive been there.


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: Love_spirit]
    #24166211 -

I worked at a fast food place several years ago. This one kid who was probably 20 or so got hired, seemed completely normal. Once the rush hit, he started breaking down. He could not operate himself at all, was bawling the fuck out.

I pulled him to the side and talked with him because I thought something bigger was going on - like maybe a family member just died or something. He told me it was just the work. This guy was in tears because he was stressed from clicking buttons on a screen. I couldn't really wrap my head around it fully, though I had anxiety myself (which went away a few years ago when I a started exercising and sleeping good) - but nothing on that level, and I've never seen anything like it since.

Three days later they fired him, because he would literally be balling his eyes out for hours on end unable to take it. Like, crying for several hours until they'd send him home.

I couldn't believe that it was just the work getting to him, and kept trying to see if there was something else bigger affecting him, but sure enough it was just the job that stressed him out so much. He'd be completely incapacitated.

I feel like he must have not been treating his anxiety though. I don't know if he would have survived in the wild. I know I'd hate to have anxiety on that level though, fuck that.

Edited by PatrickKn (03/16/17 07:11 AM)

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24166214 -

if you cant even touch a screen you should be in 100% free 24hr monitored care.(i dont mean a mental hospital either)

that level of fucked up is beyond ...being fucked up.


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mushboy]
    #24166215 -

The friend in question is a relatively new coworker friend of mine, so I've been trying not to pry too much or ask too many intrusive questions this early in the friendship, but according to her, her brother has just been a generally sad and emotional person from adolescence. Says he got so bad off mentally that he dropped out of college and ever since returning home has just seemed detached and unmotivated. She has mentioned that some times are better for him than others but evidently he's in a one of the rougher slump at the moment.

That's as much as she's told me, some of it I had to piece together on my own.

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mushboy]
    #24166230 -

if someone is that sad from childhood 9 times out of 10 something happened.. :sad:

mel_gibson_4_prez said:
Says he got so bad off mentally that he dropped out of college and ever since returning home has just seemed detached and unmotivated.


sounds like me when i was 25 and did the same thing because i went to school for the wrong reasons..

the 32 yr old me would tell the 25yr old me to stop being such a cowardly bitch.. :shrug:


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24166235 -

PatrickKn said:
...
I feel like he must have not been treating his anxiety though. I don't know if he would have survived in the wild. I know I'd hate to have anxiety on that level though, fuck that.


This is actually a really interesting choice of words to me,
because one of my broader issues of anxiety hinges precisely on such a sentiment;
am fully aware that it would not be feasible for me to survive in the wild,
but also do not consider society to be a fully civilizing factor,
so being in public spaces tends me toward a fear of being attacked again
due to a perception that predators target the young, the old, and the sickly

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: Tantrika]
    #24166236 -

I meant without someone supporting him, on his own. Not literally in the wild. But now that you mention it that's an interesting thought too​.

Edited by PatrickKn (03/16/17 07:35 AM)

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mel_gibson_4_prez]
    #24166237 -

I have seen family members that were so so depressed they stopped working, my cousin also stopped eating properly and wouldnt get out of bed. When depression gets this bad outside help is needed to get out of the downward tailspin. It's a vicious cycle, they feel bad so they withdraw and then the lack of stimulation and interaction makes the depression worse. It's hard to get through to people in this state and point out the obvious; that they need to get doing things again and start putting effort into life. Easier said than done as it is a type of illness/sickness. I think the most telling evidence is that the physical structure of the brain changes in people who are severely depressed for long periods of time.

From my own experience I think there is a genetic component as my family suffers from it and so do I (periodically) For me it comes randomly and then goes away on its own, kind of like a dark cloud rolling over the sky.

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: Tantrika]
    #24166247 -

Another interesting factoid regarding survival in the wild: anxiety is thought to be a relatively old evolutionary trait (located in  paleomammalian/emotional and reptilian/instinctual complexes) developed as a de-escelation strategy. Anxiety motivated individuals to respond to dangers before threat occurred, and proved quite beneficial.

Unfortunately, with the development of the neomammalian/rational complex, the ability to conceal traits like anxiety also involved. It's theorized that excessive concealment can lead to a breaking of that negative feedback loop which once proved so beneficial, turning it into the neuroticism of today.

Of course, this is just one proposed pathway of many.


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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mushboy]
    #24166255 -

mushboy said:
mel_gibson_4_prez said:
I have a friend who has a 25 year old brother who still lives with his parents and doesn't work because he claims his depression and anxiety is too severe.


at 25 hes being a pussy.

who isnt depressed at 25? tell him to go be depressed at a job and make money while hes at it.
parents need to step up also.


Ah the old man up argument. I really hope you never experience severe depression. It is an illness and if untreated is completely debilitating social security even classifies it as a disability and it is. It's a shame people like you are still in the dark ages when it comes to this issue.

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24166262 -

i agree.

makes me think of a star trek episode where they all de-evolve
and picard is a timid scared caved man. riker is a brute.. less said about worf the better :P

but being timid keeps you alert. staying alert keeps your ass alive in the jungle.


and other guy.. i never used the 'man up argument'

i said if you are going to be depressed try to make some money while you are at it. if anything
it was a joke in poor taste but this is a DRUG BASED FORUM. sorry.


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

Edited by mushboy (03/16/17 08:00 AM)

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24166273 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Another interesting factoid regarding survival in the wild: anxiety is thought to be a relatively old evolutionary trait (located in  paleomammalian/emotional and reptilian/instinctual complexes) developed as a de-escelation strategy. Anxiety motivated individuals to respond to dangers before threat occurred, and proved quite beneficial.

Unfortunately, with the development of the neomammalian/rational complex, the ability to conceal traits like anxiety also involved. It's theorized that excessive concealment can lead to a breaking of that negative feedback loop which once proved so beneficial, turning it into the neuroticism of today.

Of course, this is just one proposed pathway of many.


On the flip side you have people willing to jump out of planes into certain death during a war. It's almost as if human society allows both extremes of cautious nature to develop where it might not have otherwise.

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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: mel_gibson_4_prez]
    #24166274 -

Yeah it definitely can keep people from working or doing anything. Depression & anxiety is a spectrum, and can get real severe. however, people do use it as an excuse sometimes when they would be perfectly capable of working some sort of job. So he could truly be completely debilitated, or maybe not. Either way he could use some treatment.


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Re: Can depression and anxiety actually keep someone from working? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #24166275 -

indeed. in the middle is a 'normal person'

whos afraid to jump out the plane... but might.. but certainly not kill someone else.. but might..


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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