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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet
    #24014102 -

DAVOS, Switzerland (AP) -- The gap between the super-rich and the poorest half of the global population is starker than previously thought, with just eight men, from Bill Gates to Michael Bloomberg, owning as much wealth as 3.6 billion people, according to an analysis by Oxfam released Monday.
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As much as I like to incentivize and reward hard work and innovation, this is simply outrageous.  The solutions seem simple ... at some point, there is going to have to be some kind of net worth tax ... like when your personal wealth exceeds a billion dollars perhaps ... and when your personal wealth exceeds a certain number, you need to allow for transparent auditing to disclose all the details under penalty of perjury.

It's simply not healthy at all that 8 people, however talented they are, control that much wealth on a planet with 7 billion people.


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“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24014181 -

Yeah. There are about 1,800 billionaires in the world, and about 3.5 billion people below the U.N. poverty line. More than 80% of the world live in countries in which the income differential is widening. I don't know that there is any solution to this egregiousness (there probably isn't), but shit's fucked.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #24014333 -

the solution is more free market capitalism :cookiemonster:


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24014366 -

The Ecstatic said:
the solution is more free market capitalism :cookiemonster:


We don't practice much free market capitalism, it's called crony capitalism. :cookiemonster:

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24014421 -

The Ecstatic said:
the solution is more free market capitalism :cookiemonster:


I tend to agree ... the problem is we have almost none of this.  What we have is a mutant form of predatory capitalism combined with government collusion. 

The brand of capitalism that Adam Smith wrote about centuries ago is nothing like what we have now.  Interestingly, many of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington were not in favor of allowing large corporations to form in the United States and were vehemently against the formation of political parties.

When you've got corporations bigger than states that fund political parties, it's a recipe for serious problems.  That's exactly what we've got. 

Our constitution was never constructed to be able to deal with corporations the size of what we have today with the ability to write the laws for Congress.


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“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 3
    #24014475 -

Communism Capitalism is great on paper but it doesn't work well in practice.


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24014494 -

The Ecstatic said:
Communism Capitalism is great on paper but it doesn't work well in practice.


As someone a lot smarter than me once said, "if men were angels there'd be no need for government at all."

John Adams wrote at great length that he believed it was the Bank of England that truly caused the American Revolution.  They were squeezing the colonies as punishment for allowing different competing currencies to be used that were really working to stimulate the economy at the time and the Bank of England didn't like it.  They clamped down and it had a crushing impact at the time. 

That's what gave so many of the founding fathers such a strong opposition to corporations.  That, and they were seeing evidence of how corporations were involved in politics in England and they didn't want that.  For years, in most of the states, corporations had to get a special charter that was only good for 10 years and they had to prove they were operating in the public's best interest  in order to get it. 

The thought of corporations funding campaigns would have been utterly repulsive to them.

Of course, that changed a lot over the years.


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“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 3
    #24014508 -

they failed to see the natural progression of an unregulated market, thats exactly my point.

Or they did, and tried, and failed, to regulate it. Either way, free market capitalism is not the answer to this problem.


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24014519 -

KauaiOrca said:
The brand of capitalism that Adam Smith wrote about centuries ago is nothing like what we have now.  Interestingly, many of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington were not in favor of allowing large corporations to form in the United States and were vehemently against the formation of political parties.



So true, and the irony is that the elections of the late 1700s and early 1800s were some of the most bitter and contentious in our nation's history. The Federalist and Republican parties formed, and it was all downhill from there, politically.

Jefferson and his ilk were not only against corporations and big business, they were even against a central bank. I guess Hamilton had the vision that such a thing would be necessary, and founded it as Secretary of the Treasury under Washington, but bank note speculation became a huge deal. There were corruption scandals involving Congress, and many people became superrich through speculation in bank paper. In some respects, though very different in scale over time, America has had a continuous thread running from the beginning, as far as the unscrupulous making of money is concerned.



"It is much to be wished  that every discouragement should be thrown in the way of men who undertake to trade without capital.  The consumers pay for it in the end, and the debts contracted, and bankruptcies occasioned by such commercial adventurers, bring burden and disgrace on our country."  --Thomas Jefferson


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24014530 -

The Ecstatic said:
they failed to see the natural progression of an unregulated market, thats exactly my point.

Or they did, and tried, and failed, to regulate it. Either way, free market capitalism is not the answer to this problem.


I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.

Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.

I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying.  Their finances should be audited prior to running and all that should be made transparent ... then limit politicians to a total of 15 years TOTAL of elected office.  Obviously, get corporations out of the business of funding campaigns and writing legislation too. 

That would help a lot.


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“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #24014531 -

Adam Smith is a great read, but he couldn't possibly foresee today's world.

It'd be like using Joseph Conrad as a source for imperialism in the Middle East. Same topic, wildly different situation.


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24014534 -

KauaiOrca said:
The Ecstatic said:
they failed to see the natural progression of an unregulated market, thats exactly my point.

Or they did, and tried, and failed, to regulate it. Either way, free market capitalism is not the answer to this problem.


I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.

Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.

I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying.  Their finances should be audited prior to running and all that should be made transparent ... then limit politicians to a total of 15 years TOTAL of elected office.  Obviously, get corporations out of the business of funding campaigns and writing legislation too. 

That would help a lot.


This would do a tremendous deal of good, but we're still working within the framework of capitalism when it comes to economics. And capitalism is inherently flawed, imo.


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24014696 -

KauaiOrca said:
I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.

Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.

I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying. 


sounds good on paper, but this seems like a system that could be easily gamed by people in positions to write the screening parameters.  It seems to me, it would be hard to backtrack once implemented since the people elected to repeal such a policy would themselves have to have passed the screening process.

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24014746 -

Venezuela, the latest socialist nightmare is falling apart.

Under the leadership of President Hugo Chávez and now President Nicolás Maduro, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and erosion of human rights guarantees have enabled the government to intimidate, censor, and prosecute its critics, leading to increasing levels of self-censorship. Leading opposition politicians have been arbitrarily arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and barred from running for office. Police abuse, poor prison conditions, and impunity for security forces when they commit such abuses as arbitrary arrests, beatings, and denial of basic due process remain serious problems. Other concerns include lack of access to basic medicines and supplies—the result of problematic government policies—and continuous harassment of human rights defenders by government officials.

https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/05/venezuela-is-falling-apart/481755/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/11/venezuela-on-the-brink-a-journey-through-a-country-in-crisis


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http://www.theamericanright.com/
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15838446
http://www.climatedepot.com




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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24014750 -

The Ecstatic said:
This would do a tremendous deal of good, but we're still working within the framework of capitalism when it comes to economics. And capitalism is inherently flawed, imo.


I think all economic systems have flaws and vulnerabilities that can be exploited by the wealth classes.

What we have now, today, however is so utterly ridiculous in terms of the advantages it gives the wealth and political classes.  We ultimately need more citizen watchdog/oversite groups that must adhere to stricter transparency laws than Congress does. 

No easy solutions as the wealthy are clever and innovative when they work at reducing competition and controlling the legal framework.


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“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24014755 -

ballsalsa said:
KauaiOrca said:
I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.

Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.

I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying. 


sounds good on paper, but this seems like a system that could be easily gamed by people in positions to write the screening parameters.  It seems to me, it would be hard to backtrack once implemented since the people elected to repeal such a policy would themselves have to have passed the screening process.


All systems can be and ARE gamed including what we have now.  To make it work, we'd need a non-partisan oversite group to keep political meddling out of it and a lot of sunlight and transparency.

Our current system is rewarding the biggest most outrageous liars.  We just had an election that put two of the biggest liars with the longest track records of dishonesty into the top spots.  That's gotta change.


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“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24014801 -

KauaiOrca said:
The Ecstatic said:
This would do a tremendous deal of good, but we're still working within the framework of capitalism when it comes to economics. And capitalism is inherently flawed, imo.


I think all economic systems have flaws and vulnerabilities that can be exploited by the wealth classes.

What we have now, today, however is so utterly ridiculous in terms of the advantages it gives the wealth and political classes.  We ultimately need more citizen watchdog/oversite groups that must adhere to stricter transparency laws than Congress does. 

No easy solutions as the wealthy are clever and innovative when they work at reducing competition and controlling the legal framework.


I agree completely, but thats why I think putting the means of production into the hands of the citizens is the best way to curtail the wealthy's influence. We bend for them now because, in the current system, we simply can't do without them. Now, at the same time, doing nothing to stop the wealthy's ownership of our political system, it won't make it bit of difference if the state controls the means of production.


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24014845 -

The Ecstatic said:
I agree completely, but thats why I think putting the means of production into the hands of the citizens is the best way to curtail the wealthy's influence. We bend for them now because, in the current system, we simply can't do without them. Now, at the same time, doing nothing to stop the wealthy's ownership of our political system, it won't make it bit of difference if the state controls the means of production.


When you say "means of production into the hands of the citizens" I'm not sure I understand you exactly and don't want to jump to conclusions but that sounds a lot like full blown socialism and I don't think that's the answer.  Here are three possible ideas that might help.

1) I LOVE Germany's system with publicly traded companies where LABOR gets an equal number of board seats as Shareholders do.  It gives them a real voice in the boardroom as they elect those board members the same way Shareholders elect theirs.  GREAT idea and it works for them.

2) Create a 2-option corporate tax system.  The corporation CHOOSES which tax plan it wants.  The first is similar to what we have now with whatever rate Congress plugs in.  The second is a corporate tax rate of 10% if, and ONLY IF, they voluntarily shrink the pay gap to no more than 35X from top to bottom meaning the highest paid employee would make no more than 35 times what the lowest paid employee would.  It would have to be certified by a CPA and there would be a formula to include outsourcing.  Then, every corporation would have to list, on its website and product packaging which tax plan they used.

This would put shareholders on the side of pushing for a more pay equality because it would give them lower taxes! 

I also LOVE Switzerland's direct democracy system which is, IMHO, the most refined system of democracy on the planet right now.  Granted, they have a much more educated populace with a lot less social problems and racial divide, but there's a lot there we could use to improve our system. 

Finally, abolish completely the electoral college an come up with a much better and transparent system for selecting candidates and break the stranglehold the two parties now have on our elections system.


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“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24014891 -

Here's one idea I had- let the corporations and government do whatever they want, manipulate currencies, ship jobs out of the US, bring in more legal and illegal workers, no minimum wage, ect.

But here's the deal, every US citizen receives a royalty check every week from the profits on the system the greedy wanted in the first place. 

So the system is now working for the citizens instead of the citizens working for the system.

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
    #24014906 -

^ sounds like socialism, but with an intact imperial mindset.

I think America would seriously go for that lol


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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