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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22933713 -

Very interesting debate OC. As you know well I recently went through a very similar experience myself. I can say with as much certainty as is possible with my feeble human mind that the experience permanently changed me. And not just a little, a lot.

It was accompanied with more suffering and love than I could imagine or thought I was capable of, and if those things in super high doses can't change a man, I don't know what can.

I really like the way Markos translated that parable (thanks man, I struggle to decipher that language!) - in that when shown such an 'illumination', one can dismiss it or recreate oneself in response to it. Even if it is all delusion, I can't imagine a more (potentially) growing experience that a human could have.

I'd go through it all again personally, all though I'm not sure I'd be lucky enough to do so. I think it's really a call for me to become more disciplined with, and follow my own practice from here on out.

If anyone else has any opinions on that last paragraph, I'd love to hear them.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

Edited by Jokeshopbeard (02/22/16 02:30 PM)

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22933808 -

There are lots of modern translations of the Bible now. The King James sounds nice, but it is very difficult to understand. Regardless of the general ill-regard for the Bible around these forums, it is nevertheless worth delving into. Even if one is uncertain about the historicity of Jesus (Paul never talks about the man Jesus or his personal traits or history, he talks about the 'resurrected Christ'), something clearly happened historically among followers of 'The Way,' and people were being changed. Call me what you will, but I would've chosen to remain secretive like the introverted Gnostics, not thumb my nose at the emperor whilst walking brazenly into the Coliseum to be burned alive as a human torch for night festivities, or set upon by starving lions like the extraverted Christians. Some people just don't compartmentalize well, even when their lives depend on it. :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22933849 -

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:


I've always taken issue with this parable.  It's just like
Fivepointer believes imo. That God decided before hand that some wouldn't be able to have salvation. They are condemned ahead of time to eternal punishment.

Modern psychology has shown to my satisfaction that early childhood situations have a lot to do with how we turn out and what we may be able to grasp about life.  IMO people don't always have any real choice about these things due to how poorly they were nurtured and how thoroughly brainwashed by their family and social culture. 

I want nothing to do with Christianity. I've felt that way for a long time and still do.  I don't expect you to agree however and I'm not going to debate christianity with a christian. I gave that up long ago as futile. I'm just sharing my pov on this "parable".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Icelander]
    #22934472 -

Of course, share, by all means. But you may be jumping-the-gun with regard to the John Calvin-influenced theology you may have been bludgeoned with in your youth. Were your folks Presbyterian, Reformed, or Congregational church members? Just as with the Gnostics who saw that some people are and will ever remain materialists (Hylics, from 'hyle,' matter or Sarkics, from 'sarx,' flesh), and that there were people who cultivated faith (which the Gnostics called Psychics), and those relatively few people who were blessed with experiences of Gnosis (the Pneumatics). There IS 'upward mobility' in these spiritual caste systems. Materialists can acquire faith, and the Faithful can attain to Gnosis, so there isn't necessarily a heavy element in predestination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination among all of Christendom. John Wesley, founder of Methodism for example, was into free-will more than a deterministic theological emphasis.

YOUR indoctrination into Christianity is unfortunate and pathological, and divorced from you having had any experience of Christ's being as mediated by your parents. I had no indoctrination, just stories told to me by my BFF at age 5 or 6, and the tranquil gentleness of a couple of Irish Catholic neighbors whose home life was pleasant, whose very garage was scented by pine, where I experienced the ambience of several Christmases with their illuminated tree, fireplace, and the smell of freshly-baked gingerbread. All of these associations minus any gauche religious iconography led me to explore what was meant by Christ. May they rest in peace, my parents were compulsive cigarette smokers (stench and earaches for me), neurotic Brooklyn-born secular Jews. My father was irascible, my mother histrionic and smothering. Fifteen years later I set out to learn about this Christ. He became a liberator and much-needed role model for me. Christ was never about damnation, although I did struggle long and hard (no pun intended) with the 'sinfulness' of my sexual desires.

My take on Christ is nothing like the person you named. I find his perspective abhorrent and he remains as one of two people in my Ignore list. Followers of Christ are bid to love, not to judge, and love is an act of will, not a feeling. I would certainly help most anyone who needed assistance, but that does not require that I like the person or want to hang with that person. Christian love, agapé is equivalent to Buddhist compassion - it is a warm but disinterested concern for another's well-being. It accepts people and their predicament without either having to like or to be like (both are related concepts) that person.

You are still all caught up in your elders misappropriation of Christ as a name for their own ends - control and shame. For you to reclaim the central symbol of full humanity in its pristine condition is tantamount to a religious Jew trying to see the symbol of the swastika in it's original benevolent Indian, Tibetan, or Theosophical meaning of 'svasti' - well-being. Probably never going to happen. The swastika has been poisoned for the indefinite future because of Nazism. Something similar happened with you and Christ. Now, I possess a couple of swastika objects (one given to me by our Black handyman Bill who took a Nazi ashtray from a Berlin bunker in WW II and thought this young Jewish boy should have it to contemplate) - but I do not display them. My recent rape-victim client prayed to a picture of Christ crucified when she was being raped at age 6. Christ did not intervene to stop the abuse. Today she still has aversion to such images (although now attenuated by the therapy). One would require some seriously focused therapy to reclaim powerful symbols that have been profaned for you. I discovered that Jesus the Christ was not my enemy, was not representative of Gentile hostility toward Jews, and was in fact my spiritual inheritance, which I claimed with thanksgiving. Imagine that!

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/22/16 10:45 PM)

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22934551 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
love is an act of will, not a feeling.


Heya Markos, could you share your thoughts in regards to love being an act of will please? I've suspected this myself but have found few who readily agree.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #22934754 -

Well had I not had the unhealthy Baptist indoctrination at all I'd still read that parable the same. :shrug:  Seems pretty plain what it is saying.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Icelander]
    #22934940 -

Icelander said:
Well had I not had the unhealthy Baptist indoctrination at all I'd still read that parable the same. :shrug:  Seems pretty plain what it is saying.


It's not about a prejudgement, it's about the assholes of the world who insist on being assholes. In fact, they compete brutally to become Atilla the Asshole or Adolph Asshole, and through their own will reap damnation.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #22934974 -

I don't read it that way at all. He was talking about Joe and Jane doe which are the vast majority of humans on earth. 

Of course in Christianity interpretation is up for grabs but it seems pretty  plain to me. On a side note, parables are not necessary anyway imo as those who aren't going to get it won't know matter how plainly you put it.  That's been my experience. :shrug:

Not worth further discussion anyway. I have little investment in any religious documents these days. It is what it is. I'd have to chat with the man himself to know for sure. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (02/22/16 07:12 PM)

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22935014 -

Jokeshopbeard said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
love is an act of will, not a feeling.


Heya Markos, could you share your thoughts in regards to love being an act of will please? I've suspected this myself but have found few who readily agree.


How about beginning with Love as a State of Being, beginning with page 59? Because I take the love-as-will notion from Augustine of Hippo, who is a lot more difficult to read than Ram Dass! :grin: But, I'll offer another link for a paper on Augustine and love. Essentially "For Augustine, love is always an act of the will."  Maybe begin with the middle of page 28 to page 31: "The potential for this movement inward..."

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ske6kzQlmKcC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=love+as+a+state+of+being,+the+only+dance+there+is&source=bl&ots=sPflz2EzVh&sig=p6XPeimyMkpRfhNItYpPcZzF_TY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JPjTU-CfF4OYyATh8YKAAQ#v=onepage&q=love%20as%20a%20state%20of%20being%2C%20the%20only%20dance%20there%20is&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=EhGb_pbYhFQC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=augustine+on+love+as+an+act+of+will&source=bl&ots=WlbAGljDWJ&sig=hoGwduYpkTi0Pkowzsu5ODzw3SQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwib9P2n5ozLAhXH4iYKHUoJB5UQ6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=augustine%20on%20love%20as%20an%20act%20of%20will&f=false


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22935169 -

Thanks man, sounds like some good reading! Have added it to the list as can't see it on the links provided. Much appreciated Markos.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22935699 -

The links work for me. What's going on? :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Icelander]
    #22935711 -

You're unlikely to be able to see things ANY differently until a trauma has been resolved. Meanwhile, all the hatches are still firmly battened down.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22935723 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
The links work for me. What's going on? :shrug:


Not sure man, but I seem to be unable to find the page numbers you suggested on the links given.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #22935725 -

Let it go Marko's.  I gave a reasonable interpretation of scripture.  Just because you don't agree doesn't mean there's something wrong with me or what I've said.  Your attitude on these things gets old at times.  Like I said about trying to have a conversation with the religious. It's futile because they are always sure of themselves.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (02/22/16 10:59 PM)

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Icelander]
    #22939548 -

End of conversation then. I was poisoned by my parents' neurotic persecution-based secular Jewish identity. I have always assiduously avoided others who embody dynamics and values reminiscent of my parents, and I'm unwilling to change also. I don't see a point trying to connect with those whose values annoy me.
I'm not exactly sure how you interpret said scripture, you didn't really explicate it much, so I'm not really disagreeing. I really don't care either, it's clear you'd prefer not to go there and I'm not all that interested.
BTW, I don't really identify with being religious. I perform one religious ritual a week, but it's more of a personal aesthetic. I like candles. I do not belong to any defining religious community.

On a trivial topic: how come you always insert an apostrophe into "Marko's?" Markos is the Greek form of Marcus (my orthodontist used to call me Marcus Aurelius). Markos the Gnostic was a libertine Gnostic who apparently liked to travel in the company of female followers. Perhaps you just like the album 'Apostrophe.' :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22939749 -

End of conversation?


Well I'm glad you squeezed all that in as it was ending. :lol:

:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Icelander]
    #22939789 -

You make everything sound sexual! :whoa:


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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Icelander]
    #22940068 -

He's just trying to help you understand the allusive speech that Christ used to describe things that are "beyond words".

It's a fact that there are douchebags on the planet who will forever remain as douchebags and that there are people who know there are things in life that can't be bought and are beyond money anyways


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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: yeah] * 1
    #22940140 -

He doesn't need to help me by telling me I don't get it. He never explained that passage to my satisfaction. Just said basically I'm so damaged by my past experiences I can't understand. :tongue2:

Why don't you take a shot at that passage and give me your in depth analysis.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My Existential Crisis Reflection [Re: Icelander]
    #22940232 -

I don't think there's a lot to add to what I just said. Heaven isn't being used to describe a place, it's literally a synonym for enlightenment as far as I know.


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