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The EU and the UK referendum
    #22936627 -

Would you vote to leave or stay in the EU? If you are not British, you are still free to give your opinion.

David Cameron (pig fucker general) has set the referendum for June. He says the choices are - a reformed EU or to leave completely.

It strikes me that June is too early for the full case to be made either way. Fear and ignorance will influence the vote one way or another because of this.

I have mixed feelings about the EU. It is a very undemocratic system in which some EU laws are held higher than UK law..yet there are many benefits to staying in. Norway and Switzerland, however, manage to be outside the EU and still reap many benefits of the single market.

What would you decide and why?

:philososloth:
Would you want to stay in or leave the EU?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from 02/23/16 01:13 AM until the end of time
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Tipote]
    #22936663 -

What benefits for staying in?

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: qman]
    #22936709 -

qman said:
What benefits for staying in?



Its mostly economic reasons i think. Like open borders, shared currency, ...

I hope the UK drops out so their bullshit drug policies dont infest my country or th EU as a whole.

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
    #22936727 -

howsyournaggerdoin said:
qman said:
What benefits for staying in?



Its mostly economic reasons i think. Like open borders, shared currency, ...





What would make anyone think a open border and shared currency would be beneficial, unless you are very rich.

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: qman] * 1
    #22936788 -

The EU was a great deal...for italy, spain, greece, france, bulgaria...they all had garbage currency before the inception of the Euro.  The UK was leery of joining or adopting the Euro in the first place, after all, their money was quite valuable at the time (and has significantly weakened relative to the dollar or euro since).  Also, the free travel thing is a double edged sword at times.  Sure, it encourages trade and tourism in the region, but it also makes it difficult to keep out "undesirables" whatever that may mean at any given time.

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22936878 -

i'm no expert on the EU

some of the benefits are
-workplace standards, environmental standards, human rights law, employment rights etc is standardised across the entire EU. This is particularly of interest to Eastern European states and the Balkans which have poorer standards generally.
-access to the single market which allows free trade within Europe, combined with the Schengen free movement agreement this helps business by cutting bureaucracy and the costs of dealing with customs and borders - this helps small and medium businesses too as well as customers.
The EU trading bloc is one of the richest economic environments accounting for nearly a quarter of global GDP
Some studies show that the single market has increased the wealth of all member states. By helping the poorer states to increase their wealth, citizens in those countries can then afford goods from elsewhere in the market and therefore it increases the wealth of all states.
-it unites Europe and contributes to maintaining peace between all member states
-Schengen means the economy is flexible with labour going to where it is needed, with ease. migration within the EU makes a net contribution to tax revenues
it also means tourism is easier and this brings in a lot of money.
The market is larger and so there is more choice. People from Cyprus for example can access top universities in the UK or elsewhere in Europe (foreign students pay a ridiculous amount for EU universities).
-EU arrest warrant and police cooperation mean its easier to catch criminals.
- tackling environmental issues namely global climate change with cooperative action across the EU
- tackling issues of over fishing and agricultural issues with the CAP and CFP (both of which are hugely flawed)


I'm inclined to vote to leave but I haven't decided. Ultimately, I dont think the UK will leave - partly because the referendum is so soon and the case for or against hasnt been openly laid out and discussed. People are scared of the unknown.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
    #22936887 -

howsyournaggerdoin said:
Its mostly economic reasons i think. Like open borders, shared currency, ...

I hope the UK drops out so their bullshit drug policies dont infest my country or th EU as a whole.



What country are you from?

The UK is definitely resisting the changes to drug policy. I'm surprised their resistance has lasted so long.
Even the police all over the country have increasingly said they won't be priorising catching people who grow cannabis.

How will UK drug policies infest your country? I'm not sure if i understand.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Tipote]
    #22937243 -

so no one who voted is stating their reasons?


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Tipote]
    #22937431 -

Tipote said:
I have mixed feelings about the EU. It is a very undemocratic system in which some EU laws are held higher than UK law.



Well said.

I think you know my position with out me even stating it.

Britain voted to join the EU in the 70's for the sole purpose of free trade and nothing more. Yet today, they govern our country entirely, from enforcing law, to deciding who can come to live and work here.

We do not need to be a member of the EU, to trade with the rest of its members. The EU needs the UK, more than the UK needs the EU and trade will continue regardless of the lack of our continued membership, that is 100% guaranteed.

There's also the problem with open borders and our country being open to over 500 million people, who can legally just walk in and stay when ever they feel like it and that will only increase when the EU starts handing out EU passports to the people of the migrant crisis.

These two points are just scratching the surface, but i think they're going to be the major topics of conversation through out this campaign.

David Camerons a punk and his EU reform deal is laughable. Its just a feeble attempt to trick voters in to thinking some kind of real change will take place, when the reality is, nothing will change.

Its time to leave. Its time to govern our own country again and take back control of our own borders.

Edited by Bubbles85 (02/23/16 02:15 PM)

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22937495 -

ballsalsa said:
The UK was leery of joining or adopting the Euro in the first place, after all, their money was quite valuable at the time (and has significantly weakened relative to the dollar or euro since).



This is a load of crap. The pound is and all ways has been stronger than the Euro and it is stronger than the dollar as well. Keeping our national currency was one of the smartest decisions we ever made.

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22937765 -

Bubbles85 said:
ballsalsa said:
The UK was leery of joining or adopting the Euro in the first place, after all, their money was quite valuable at the time (and has significantly weakened relative to the dollar or euro since).



This is a load of crap. The pound is and all ways has been stronger than the Euro and it is stronger than the dollar as well. Keeping our national currency was one of the smartest decisions we ever made.



no, it is not a load of crap.  The pound is weaker relative to the dollar and euro than it was before the adoption of the euro in the UK.

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22937847 -

What do you mean the adoption of the Euro in the UK? The UK has never adopted the Euro.

The current exchange rate today, 23/02/2016 for the pound, is £1GBP = $1.4024USD and £1GBP = 1.2725EUR, ergo the pound is the strongest of all three currency's.

Edited by Bubbles85 (02/23/16 04:04 PM)

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22937906 -

I never disputed that the pound was the strongest of the 3 currencies, however, i do have to admit that you are correct in pointing out my misconception about the use of euros in the UK.

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22937942 -

ballsalsa said:
I never disputed that the pound was the strongest of the 3 currencies, however, i do have to admit that you are correct in pointing out my misconception about the use of euros in the UK.



I should hope so, seeing as I'm English and use the GBP every day :lol: The UK never adopted the single currency, thank god.

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22938161 -

Bubbles85 said:
Tipote said:
I have mixed feelings about the EU. It is a very undemocratic system in which some EU laws are held higher than UK law.



Well said.

I think you know my position with out me even stating it.

Britain voted to join the EU in the 70's for the sole purpose of free trade and nothing more. Yet today, they govern our country entirely, from enforcing law, to deciding who can come to live and work here.

We do not need to be a member of the EU, to trade with the rest of its members. The EU needs the UK, more than the UK needs the EU and trade will continue regardless of the lack of our continued membership, that is 100% guaranteed.

There's also the problem with open borders and our country being open to over 500 million people, who can legally just walk in and stay when ever they feel like it and that will only increase when the EU starts handing out EU passports to the people of the migrant crisis.

These two points are just scratching the surface, but i think they're going to be the major topics of conversation through out this campaign.

David Camerons a punk and his EU reform deal is laughable. Its just a feeble attempt to trick voters in to thinking some kind of real change will take place, when the reality is, nothing will change.

Its time to leave. Its time to govern our own country again and take back control of our own borders.



I think free movement is great actually. I'm not concerned about that aspect so much - more that there is no accountability or legitimacy to the governance of the EU. As i said in an above post, EU migrants are net contributors to tax coffers. You know 1.6 million (at least) UK citizens live outside the UK in the EU. When brits do it, they are expats and when anyone else does it they are sponging immigrants.

But i do agree with you generally that we should probably leave because although I would like to be part of a HUGELY reformed EU, Cameron is not going to get that with his deals.

I think Scotland, Wales and NI should get full independence (might be a little more difficult in Northern Ireland considering the IRA are rearming..) too



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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22938171 -

Bubbles85 said:
I should hope so, seeing as I'm English and use the GBP every day :lol: The UK never adopted the single currency, thank god.



yeh thank fucking god we didnt adopt the Euro. Thats a big problem with the EU, every EU member state economy is different but the Euro is the same and I believe its Germany that controls the Euro so it suits them best.

Shame Gordon Brown sold all our gold before the price went up too.

derp


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Tipote]
    #22939720 -

Tipote said:
Bubbles85 said:
Tipote said:
I have mixed feelings about the EU. It is a very undemocratic system in which some EU laws are held higher than UK law.



Well said.

I think you know my position with out me even stating it.

Britain voted to join the EU in the 70's for the sole purpose of free trade and nothing more. Yet today, they govern our country entirely, from enforcing law, to deciding who can come to live and work here.

We do not need to be a member of the EU, to trade with the rest of its members. The EU needs the UK, more than the UK needs the EU and trade will continue regardless of the lack of our continued membership, that is 100% guaranteed.

There's also the problem with open borders and our country being open to over 500 million people, who can legally just walk in and stay when ever they feel like it and that will only increase when the EU starts handing out EU passports to the people of the migrant crisis.

These two points are just scratching the surface, but i think they're going to be the major topics of conversation through out this campaign.

David Camerons a punk and his EU reform deal is laughable. Its just a feeble attempt to trick voters in to thinking some kind of real change will take place, when the reality is, nothing will change.

Its time to leave. Its time to govern our own country again and take back control of our own borders.



I think free movement is great actually. I'm not concerned about that aspect so much - more that there is no accountability or legitimacy to the governance of the EU. As i said in an above post, EU migrants are net contributors to tax coffers. You know 1.6 million (at least) UK citizens live outside the UK in the EU. When brits do it, they are expats and when anyone else does it they are sponging immigrants.

But i do agree with you generally that we should probably leave because although I would like to be part of a HUGELY reformed EU, Cameron is not going to get that with his deals.

I think Scotland, Wales and NI should get full independence (might be a little more difficult in Northern Ireland considering the IRA are rearming..) too



I disagree. The free movement of people is only great for the poorest member states. For country's like the UK, who's standard of living and minimum wages are so much higher than most of Europe, it has a negative effect on our country, with mainly unskilled, low paid migrant workers, coming here in the hundreds of thousands every year, to send the money they earn back home.

This is the problem with free movement, we have absolutely no control over the quality of the people who can come in. Instead of bringing in highly skilled, highly educated people, we get the poorest and the most deprived from every member state, because they can earn more on minimum wage here, than they can in their home country.

The EU also fails to protect the free movement of people to only member states and allows pretty much any one, from any where in the world, just walk in here.

This is crippling our National Health Service, our transport systems and our public services. Any one from any country with in the EU, can walk straight into the UK, receive free health care with out paying a penny and then go straight back home again. Its ridiculous.

Many Brits do live on the continent yes, but most British ex pats living in Spain and France etc, are retirees, who move to those country s not for work, but for the weather and they're fully able to support them selves right from the start. That is not the case with most migrants coming in to the UK.

If Scotland, Wales or NI wanted to leave the UK, then i would have no problem with that. Scotland had a recent referendum on their independence and the majority voted to stay within the UK. I just hope that the public come to their senses and do the opposite with their vote regarding the EU.


Edit: Yes i also agree with you're position on the accountability and legitimacy to the governance. EU government officials are UN-elected. It's a complete and utter disgrace, that we are being governed by people who have never elected to do so by the people.

Edited by Bubbles85 (02/24/16 05:17 AM)

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Bubbles85]
    #22939914 -

Bubbles85 said:
I disagree. The free movement of people is only great for the poorest member states. For country's like the UK, who's standard of living and minimum wages are so much higher than most of Europe, it has a negative effect on our country, with mainly unskilled, low paid migrant workers, coming here in the hundreds of thousands every year, to send the money they earn back home.

This is the problem with free movement, we have absolutely no control over the quality of the people who can come in. Instead of bringing in highly skilled, highly educated people, we get the poorest and the most deprived from every member state, because they can earn more on minimum wage here, than they can in their home country.

The EU also fails to protect the free movement of people to only member states and allows pretty much any one, from any where in the world, just walk in here.

This is crippling our National Health Service, our transport systems and our public services. Any one from any country with in the EU, can walk straight into the UK, receive free health care with out paying a penny and then go straight back home again. Its ridiculous.



free movement doesn't just help the poorest states. It means that Brits can live throughout Europe too and reap the benefits. For Brits going to countries where the cost of living is incredibly cheap relative to the UK, people do very well out of that. They might even start businesses in those areas where labour and everything else is cheap. Then they can export to the richer states and make a killing. Having those poorer states make money is in the interest of the EU as a whole. Yes Poles have been able to go back to Poland and have enough savings to build a house and make a business. Spreading the wealth is in our interest!

For those people from poorer states coming to richer states, if they are bad then they don't get a job. Many people prefer to employ Poles for example because the stereotype now is that English peoples' work ethic is terrible and they are lazy. These people come because they know there is a gap and a demand for them. There are jobs that native Brits will not do. We can complain about that all we like but it won't change if Brits don't do those jobs. Also its already been shown that welfare tourism is a myth. EU migrants are net contributors to the states they are in!

I agree that the external borders of the EU are relatively weak and that once someone is in, they can go to every country. But the fact is that the UK isn't part of the aspect of Schengen that allows no checks when coming to the UK, the UK still has its border despite free movement. I would support a stronger external border, especially when it comes to Turkey. They are making a killing out of their mafia links and people smuggling into the EU. I hope they never enter the EU despite their leverage with using migrants.

The NHS isnt crippled from migration from the EU!!! Its cripped because the Tories are slowing selling it off to their mates and cutting their budgets!!

Quote:
Many Brits do live on the continent yes, but most British ex pats living in Spain and France etc, are retirees, who move to those country s not for work, but for the weather and they're fully able to support them selves right from the start. That is not the case with most migrants coming in to the UK.



As I said above, EU migrants are net contributors to the state so its just not true. You say expats but why not immigrants? It's not just retirees but they make up a huge proportion, true.

Quote:
If Scotland, Wales or NI wanted to leave the UK, then i would have no problem with that. Scotland had a recent referendum on their independence and the majority voted to stay within the UK. I just hope that the public come to their senses and do the opposite with their vote regarding the EU.



I agree that its cool for them to leave. In Scotland, there were potential cases of electoral fraud and London did its best to make sure it wouldnt happen. Fear plays a part too. Just as my cartoon above shows, people fear that we will be weaker out of a union then within. It was a close result if i remember right. If there was another referendum, I think they might get it.


Quote:
Edit: Yes i also agree with you're position on the accountability and legitimacy to the governance. EU government officials are UN-elected. It's a complete and utter disgrace, that we are being governed by people who have never elected to do so by the people.



absolutely i agree.

Even Farage and the other anti EU groups use the EU and get paid huge sums of tax payer money to fuck around.

It's a difficult decision because a break up of the EU can be in the benefit of both the far right and the far left.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Tipote]
    #22939915 -



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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Re: The EU and the UK referendum [Re: Tipote]
    #22939934 -

BTW bubbles, i like your change of avatar.


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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