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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: trendal]
    #2240556 -

All interesting enough, but there is a major flaw- there is no absolute reason that any of the scientific theories are correct- everything in science is based on observation, but in the case of astrophysics, subatomic physics and related fields- every theory is an intense extrapolation of certain data

Humans apply their scientific laws to every place in the Universe because they see no reason not to- why should anywhere else be different? This assumes that the laws will remain constant forever. ANY "minor" change in reality redefines everything we know- a large number of scientists believe in and work toward a unified theory of physics - kind of like Einstein's E = mcc, which links matter, energy, and light in one equation.. Imagine gravity, electro-weak forces and etc combined through a series of equations ( or one ). If such a theory exists ( I believe a mathematical proof for its existence exists ), then nothing can change without affecting everything else..

Consider that "Scientific method" has existed for a relatively short time and that it depends entirely on a heirarchy of observation- most science is the connection of concepts and observations through theories. It's only through freak accidents and dumb luck that anything truly new is discovered. Though we've connected a vast amount of information, we keep telling ourselves that there are more questions for each connection, but they get easier to answer as technology progresses.

In some cases, a scientist labours all of his life to answer something that is explained only after he stumbles upon something new that he hadn't considered before.



And here we are, trying to explain the entire Universe according to all that we've touched and felt on Earth. The human mind is built for coping with chaos- we have a chaos in our minds, and a chaos in the Universe around us. The realization of thought is the segmentation of chaos into little bits and chunks that seem straight to our minds. Thought is a deep and painful flow within our minds- the very minds we're trying to explain the existence of.. I could go on.. but consider that "it's hardly a fish that ever discovered water"

born of chaos, we jump in and look for warmth...

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: ]
    #2241212 -

Well, I think you need to consider how well quantum physics has held up, first of all. A lot of things are based on the quantum theories, such as the electron tunneling of microchips, which is a proven fact that limits their minimum size.

No physicist will ever say that such theories have been proven, though -- they have not -- this is why they are still theories. They do have certain truths, though -- they ARE right up to a certain point, but are by no means an all-encompassing representation of all the laws of the universe. You need some theories in order to discover new ones, though. Theoretical Physics is all about looking outside of the box, according to most theoretical physicists, but one still has to learn all the other theories before coming up with a new one (I forget who said this, because I can't pronounce his name -- author of the book Faster than the Speed of Light, or something like that.)

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: micro]
    #2242197 -

right, but discovering the inherent properties of what we happen to interpret as the Universe is completely relative.. When we go from qualitative to quantitative, the most obvious things require extensive theories and proofs- all of which can be interpreted differently. The hardest part about arguing against science is technology and the wonderful things that seem to hold up against everything else.

Science is the greatest human achievement for materialism. It disregards quirks and habits of reality, and dismisses them as chance errors and misinterpretations.. In the cases that need multiple forms of observation ( say, matching up what we see with light and radio signals coming from that area, or subatomic things ), we assume that everything correlates, but the heisenberg principle and theory of relativity establish that everything we try to observe is not untouched by our observation and that simultaneity is not a prequisite to the Universe's existence.

With borderline cases where speeds approach lightspeed ( sometimes infinite velocity, supposedly some subatomic particles enjoy such things as randomnly disappearing and appearing somewhere else, or time-travelling ), where we can only extrapolate much information - quantum physics attempts to step in. With it nothing is certain, but we can be left with probabilities for something occuring.

the more and more we reach the limits of our observable Universe, the more and more we make up to fit in with what we've already established- but everything is not necessarily connected. It is not an unknown belief among physicists that the Universe is just a dream.. In fact, it was a respectable physicist who suggested such a thing

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: ]
    #2243506 -

Quote:
the more and more we reach the limits of our observable Universe, the more and more we make up to fit in with what we've already established


I disagree, but you make a good point. The more and more we learn about the universe, the CLOSER we are to being right. There are certain achievments we have made that are correct compared to the former beleifs -- we know the Earth is not flat, we know it revolvs around the sun (not intended to spawn a discussion of relativity) and we know, now, that relativity is not a universal theory. In order to learn, one must know what they don't know and take it from there.

Quantum physics holds up really well, and there is new technology out that is based on the quantum principles. This is why I say it's at least somewhat right -- it's at least a step closer. Soon enough we'll be even close.

I guess my only point is that science is progressing in a forward direction -- there's no reason to think the opposite. Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we can't learn anything new.

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2244482 -

if you as with me don't quite buy this big bang method, there is an interesting article in Discover magazine offering a really mind blowing alternative to the bang.


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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: micro]
    #2246253 -

Yes, we do see the effects- but that doesn't mean it's correct- it just works. Everything is constantly re-assessed and questioned, and occasionally updated... I'm not really arguing that science is useless, rather I'm saying that I have no faith in it for the long term; I'm sure human tinkering, whether formally considered science or not, will come up with some incredible things..

damned if I know, I don't trust the consequences of scientific inquiry farther than I can dropkick them, but I don't think they're truly useless. I'm a CS major, so I have some form of "respect" for science and its realization in technology... but it's more of a reverance than respect ( I don't really.. "respect" anything according to what I see as the real meaning of the word )

oh well. arguing a position, you often get caught up trying to defend something you're just trying to explore

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2247014 -

I'm not really sure I see the difference between god and the big bang. They're both just inexplicable sources of creation. Who created G od? Why did the big bang happen? *shrug*


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I know what he wants: a drag of smooth tobbacco blended with the finest Turkish Turkweed. Here, have a toke on me you dumb beast.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: KthxBye]
    #2249624 -

i didnt read all the responces, but i hope someone pointed out that the big bang is NOT an explanation of the creation of the universe. it only explains why its suposedly expanding.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: micro]
    #2250124 -

reality is a series of 1's and 0's, +'s and -'s, up's and down's fractalizing inward and outward into infinity on infinite planes.
everything you see and dont see is an arm on the fractal of possibilities and chaos. there is no explaning it. we dont possess the immortality to do it. Humans can never Know everything no matter how many times we use the word law or proof.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2250441 -


The Big Bang had to have happened imo. The infinate loop of time spins, and at one point, everything has been done allready and the loop has to start from the beginning again.

We know that black holes suck in matter and (probably) eventually explode at certian points (depending on variables), expelling matter and creating a mega-nova. I think that if one black hole got big enough, and the radius of the event horizon could capture matter from millions, to trillions of light-years away, then it could concieveable get bigger, sucking entire galaxies into it until there was nothing left.

All matter was and will be sucked into a tiny ball of space for one instant, because time would become frozen and something has to come after nothing, meaning that it could have only been an instant before it went bang to start the loop over again.

If everything happens within the loop, that means the physics of all dimensions change with the distortion of time. It could be seen as a streched grid, where x, y, and z are matter, space, and time- it would appear to enlarge the squares in the center of the graph, creating a sphere. You probably have to be on something to get what I just said, sorry. It's hard to fathom, but with the aid of hallusinogenz, I was able to grasp it (and remember most of it too).


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Murex]
    #2250609 -

Murex: I know what your saying, its very very hard to put into words, thats the best I've ever heard it put, still kinda hard to picture and understand unless you've come up with some of the same thoughts.

Time loops infinitly, there is no stopping it, eventually you will read this again and again and again, whether /you/ know it or not.

Also, if there is ever going to be a time machine built, time must loop otherwise there would be nowhere to go "back" or "forward" to. "12 Monkeys" is an exellent movie to illistrate this point.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Murex]
    #2250679 -

hm.. why would a black hole explode?
they say that there are white holes, not yet observed because of their nature, which basically seem to spit out matter endlessly - counterparts of black hole, which are probably linked to them... hell, i guess your made-up explanation sounds plausible too. pfft.. theoretics

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: ]
    #2251366 -


A Black Hole can't ever truely be seen, but they are common to every galaxy (usually in the center) and are identified with the sphere of energy around them. This is actually a whirl-pool of matter being syphoned into it. I'm pretty sure they evolve from a star and aquires a heavier density and a more powerful pull of gravity. I can't really grasp a White Hole as you explained them, but it could be a former Black Hole that is expelling it's mass.

We know stars supernova after they collapse with their density, so how would a Black Hole be any different?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Murex]
    #2251717 -

well why wouldn't they? We have no idea how black holes really work because we cannot observe anything from them. According to what we know, they have *no* volume- a star needs to have a particular density to become a black hole, yes, but after that it appears to vanish because of the gravity created by that small point...

a white hole is supposed to be linked to a black hole, likely with a wormhole, but it doesn't have to exist at the same time- matter channeled through time. Very interesting.. not in the least impossible either. Subatomic particles randomnly move backwards in time pretty often anyway..

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: ]
    #2251851 -

Light cannot escape a Black Hole. The only way we can study this phenomenon, is to see how it's surroundings react to a Black Hole.

A Black Hole could exist in a deep part of space, where no stars reside. It would then be invisible, unless we use a parrallax to see where that area blacks out the light from other stars. But we would need another point of view to do this.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Murex]
    #2252400 -

not necessarily- thats just the common answer

gamma rays and xrays are emitted from black holes. hell some black holes have trouble taking in too much at once and expel it.

black holes really are still a theory.. we don't really know what they are.. How dense can something get? If a giant star collapses into a black hole and begins taking in more matter, then it continues getting denser because of the increase in gravitational pull

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: ]
    #2252765 -


How can gamma rays or x-rays escape the pull of a Black Hole? I might understand maybe a smaller Black Hole (one with little mass in comparison) not being able to retrieve gamma or x-rays. If this is true, I believe that these rays would be distorted by a Black Hole to the point where it would be hard to know their orgin.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Murex]
    #2253682 -

Well technically they don't escape the black hole itself...

X-ray emission associated with a black hole comes from the accretion disc of matter around the black hole...not from the black hole itself. What happens is the matter swirling around the black hole is accelerated to such a speed that it begins to "glow" in the x-ray band.

A black hole out in the middle of nowhere, with no accretion disc surrounding it, will not emit x-rays.

It WILL, however, emit Hawking Radiation. This is an entierly different process, involving virtual particles. At all points in space there is a constant fluctuation of the rest-energy associated with the vacume. This fluctuation causes virtual particles to be created, "borrowing" energy from the vacume. A virtual particle pair is always a particle/antiparticle combination, and usually the particles annhiliate eachother soon after creation. If this happens directly outside the event horizon of a black hole, there is a chance that one of the particles will be pulled inside the black hole and allow the other to escape into space. This is Hawking Radiation, and it has a few very important implications for black holes (relating to entropy, and that black holes dissipate over time).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: trendal]
    #2253879 -

Exactly, it will distort energy around it and convert it into radiation. It is amazing thow, because any matter will be stressed into different forms with de-molecularization and fission.

In a sense, black holes are just one giant nucleous of an atom with a very high density that keeps changing as it aquires more mass.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: trendal]
    #2253902 -


There could also be a field near the event horizon that spirals matter around, making it travel at incredable speeds, and sending it off the path of the mallstrom, converting it into energy- light or radiation.

Kinda like how objects can spiral around an atmosphere of a planet with the entry point a certian angle to where it can be rocketed out of orbit with incredable speed.

It's all gravity theroy in a sense.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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