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Offlinewackytron
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Registered: 09/05/03
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getting rid of CO2
    #2249262 - 01/17/04 09:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

My friend is thinking of putting some small holes near the bottom of their terrarium with some type of filter there. There is already a bubbler inside for fresh air, so do you think the new vents would help with CO2 buildup since CO2 is heavier than O2?


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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: wackytron]
    #2249268 - 01/17/04 09:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

ya that will work I would still fan every now and then just to make sure


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Offlinewackytron
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: fee]
    #2249288 - 01/17/04 09:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, They also added a fan inside to make sure the humidity is distributed evenly, but they think that also helps stir up the air (CO2 and O2) too.


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OfflinefIsh in my head
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: wackytron]
    #2249607 - 01/18/04 03:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The whole CO2 buildup thing isn't really convincing for me. CO2 sure is heavier than O but i'm not really sure that it actually falls in the bottom of the terrarium since gases are expandable.

1 mol of O = 15.998g
1 mol of N = 14.007g
1 mol of C = 12.011g
1 mol of CO2 = 44.007g

I dunno. Let say you completely isolate a room and make sure the ambiant air is 100% stagnant with no air circulation at all. Do you think that you'll get near the roof some pure Oxygen, in the middle of the room some pure Nitrogen and near the floor, some pure CO2? I highly doubt it. Same thing in the terrarium.

Now, CO2 is almost 3 times heavier than O so I guess CO2 concentration will be a little bit higher near the bottom but not that much. And if there's a pump or something creating air flow in here, no buildup occurs so it doesn't really matter where the holes are located.

Does that make sense?

.fs.


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OfflineTheDrugStore
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: fIsh in my head]
    #2249627 - 01/18/04 03:11 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yea it does make sense. Personally i have a little mini fan blowing it out on the bottom because it does fall to the bottom. Like when you grow weed you supply the CO2 with a hose on the top of the grow room so it falls on the plant...so it does fall to the floor. But with just a hole i cant see it escaping by itself... though with a little help from a fan it gets out perfectly.


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OfflineGRTUD
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: fIsh in my head]
    #2249989 - 01/18/04 07:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

In a small container with no circulation CO2 is a problem when growing mushrooms. I've lowered a lighter (lit) into the bottom of a fruiting chamber, when there is a good deal of growth going on, and it won't stay lit due to the amount of concentrated CO2. I thought the same thing you do and wanted to find out for sure. I've also noticed a change in the amount of growth if the container goes without some type of exchange for more than a day or two.


--------------------
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OfflinePandyCants
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: GRTUD]
    #2250185 - 01/18/04 12:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

im a little rusty on this, but also oxygen is a diatomic gas so the MW would be like 32. It does make sense that the CO2 would collect at the bottom but then again gases do expand to the container they are put in so it wouldnt be suprising if there was CO2 still in the middle or even the top.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: fIsh in my head]
    #2250267 - 01/18/04 12:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe the falling CO2 theory either.


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Offline284_27
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2250407 - 01/18/04 02:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

While it is true that heavier gases do tend to settle ( fumes of propane and gasoline for instance ) any kind of air mixing , such as provided by a air pump will negate that effect . In short , I think that to much emphasis is being put on the wieght differntial of CO2 : keep the air moving and it will be of no importance .


--------------------
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- Thomas Jefferson

Fly high and I will meet you there .
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Offlinegreenplato
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: fIsh in my head]
    #2259247 - 01/21/04 11:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Gather around and think back to high school chemistry. Remember Graham's Law of Diffusion? Let's put on our thinking caps...

Picture a big room with a bunch of people of it, a party of sorts. It's mostly empty space, but given our personal space issues it seems quite full. Most people are wearing brown shirts (about 78%), some wear blue (20%), very few (0.03%) wear red, and a few other colors are represented in very small percentages1. All of these people are moving in random directions at random speeds. Every so often they will collide; when they bump into each other, repulsive forces cause them to move in a new, random direction (as is the behavior of an ideal gas).

This is the air we breathe. More importantly, this is the air in which mushrooms grow.

Now, the door opens up and more people wearing red start entering the room. These people represent the addition of carbon dioxide gas, a byproduct from the respiration of the mushrooms. They all enter the room from the same location (the substrate), and they behave the same as the rest of our gaseous partygoers--they move at a random speed bouncing off others in random directions.

They do not instantly mix with the people that are already at this party. The rate at which a gas molecule intermingles with the rest of the gas in the container is inversely proportional to the square root of its molar mass (Graham's Law). Or, simply, you can say the speed a person can move through this crowd depends on his/her mass: lighter people cover more distance than heavier people in the same period of time. Most of the molecules at this party are N2 and O2. These party crashers that we need to keep our eyes on, the CO2, have a greater molar mass than the N2 and O2 (44amu compared to 28 and 32). Eventually, they will diffuse out into the terrarium so that any part of the terrarium will contain an equal and homogenous mix of gas, but the continual biological production of CO2 will result in a localized higher concentration of CO2 in the air directly around the substrate.

But wait, some of you are saying, what about gravity? Does the greater mass of CO2 cause it to settle at the bottom of the terrarium? Although carbon dioxide molecules have a greater mass than oxygen and nitrogen, gravity does not play a role in the behavior of gasses under these circumstances. The force of gravitational attraction is proportional to the masses of two bodies and inversely proportional to the distance between them squared. In terms of your own weight, will your scale register a lower weight on top of the kitchen table than the floor? No, although you have increased the distance between you and the center of the earth, it is such a small change compared to the enormous distance that already exists that no decrease in weight would be measured. The same goes for the tiny differences between the masses of the gas molecules in the terrarium. The kinetic energies (mass x velocity2) of the gas molecules play a much larger role in their diffusion and distribution. In fact, not until about 60 miles up (100km) in the earth's atmosphere do the lighter gasses become more prevalent2.

The concentration of CO2 is important because it part of the biological trigger that causes the fungus to fruit (as well as promote certain contaminants). This is why we fan our terrariums or take care to provide sufficient air exchange and circulation in our grow rooms. Because of the limited rate of diffusion of the carbon dioxide gas and continual metabolic production, we must provide "fresh" air through active means (such as a fan or manual fanning).

Looking at the molecular environment around our mushroom beds in this light should help you understand what actions you should take to promote the most beneficial environmental parameters, as well as put some old myths to rest.

1 This assumes clean, dry air at sea level. Real life samples would include some percentage of H2O vapor and other strange stuff.

2 http://www.oma.be/BIRA-IASB/Public/Research/Thermo/Thermotxt.en.html



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: greenplato]
    #2259376 - 01/21/04 12:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Fabulous post!


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OfflineMax1
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: wackytron]
    #2259453 - 01/21/04 12:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This isnt rocket science people. Of cource C02 sinks in an undisturbed closed container. Helium is lighter than air and floats very easily when the 2 are occupying the same space. C02 is heavier there for it must sink. The distance from the earth has nothing to do with how much C02 sinks since all the gases we are talking about are occuping the same space at the same altitude. Heavy gas sinks while lighter gas will float. In an undisturbed inviroment where oxygen is consumed and C02 is produced there will be a seperation of these gasses. The Co2 will build up and sink to the bottom and the lighter gasses will rise above it.
Gravity plays a major role in EVERTHING on earth no matter how small.

C02 is so heavy that it can be poured from one container to another straight through the air. 6th grade Science class here people.


Edited by Max1 (01/21/04 01:19 PM)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: Max1]
    #2259538 - 01/21/04 01:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

>Of cource C02 sinks in an undisturbed closed container

You miss one very important point: This container is NOT undisturbed!

Differences in temperature between the substrate and the surrounding air create a never ending airflow which mixes the gases within the container.

Something that clearly shows that there are such currents is the fact that the spores released by the gills of the mushrooms often land on the top of the cap itself, something which would be impossible if there were no currents.

And if the currents are strong enough to carry spores, what do you think will happen with the CO2? It will be constantly mixed under as well.


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OfflineMax1
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: wackytron]
    #2259600 - 01/21/04 01:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well i disagree as far as how much movement there is in an unfanned chamber. I can see spores getting deposited on the cap if one is fanning or has a climate controled enviroment with fans and or humidifiers running but the fact still remains that C02 is not a little heavier..its a lot heavier the 02. And it will sink. like i said above that you can take a container of C02 and pour it out of one container into another. That is not a undisturbed container..that is in the open air with the c02 falling thru it.
I dont mean to sound rude but i dont think you understand the point.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: Max1]
    #2259731 - 01/21/04 02:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

>I can see spores getting deposited on the cap if one is fanning or has a climate
>controlled environment with fans and or humidifiers running
The spores will get on the top in a covered bucket with a layer of perlite and with cakes on it, no fanning , no nothing.

>but the fact still remains that C02 is not a little heavier..its a lot heavier the 02.
It?s 44/32 times heavier, which is 37% heavier. You call this a lot?

Now how much heavier than air are spores? 100 times? Yet they are carried UP by the currents in the container!

>I dont mean to sound rude but i dont think you understand the point.
I think you don?t understand many other points.


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OfflineMax1
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: wackytron]
    #2259764 - 01/21/04 02:35 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Ok you win..C02 doesnt sink in the chamber it is mixed up evenly with in the enviroment.


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OfflineKreeprCeepr
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: Max1]
    #2259863 - 01/21/04 03:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Freshman Biology class, DIFFUSION! molecules of a higher concentration move to a space of lower concentration until and equilibrium is reached. doesn't matter what the gases are or how heavy they are.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: Max1]
    #2259882 - 01/21/04 03:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Win, win....Nobody is wanting to win here....I am just telling you something that might not be obvious at the first moment.
If you go with a gas detector, I am sure the levels of CO2 will still be higher at the bottom, but not to the extent that you would have a clear separation like if you poured water into the container and observer the border. The amounts of CO2 produced by the mycelium are not small, but it is produced at a slow rate, so you never have a great amount of CO2 there at once.

To show you how far uncritical thinking can lead you, visit this link:
http://www.nygord-precision.com/technique2.html

They indeed claim:

"The first step in breathing for shot delivery is to PURGE the lungs of CO2. Most of us only use about 1/2 the lung's capacity while breathing "at rest." CO2 is heavier than air and sinks to the bottom of the lungs. To purge it, we need to make a deep exhale and push all of the CO2 out. "

I mean, people, THINK.....


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Invisiblenofind_um
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: greenplato]
    #2259919 - 01/21/04 03:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This is the air we breathe. More importantly, this is the air in which mushrooms grow




I like your thinking!!


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My hunting partner is gone, I miss her so!


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OfflineMax1
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Re: getting rid of CO2 [Re: Anno]
    #2259959 - 01/21/04 03:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

[Anno]
If you go with a gas detector, I am sure the levels of CO2 Will still be higher at the bottom,

Well that is all i was trying to say !!!
Im done with the conversation.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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