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Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit?
    #2223336 -

Maybe I'm a complete idiot (very probable) but it seems to me that the universe having an age (begining) either negates the law of conservation of mass and energy or proves god. Am am not very good at math but I'm pretty sure no change can come that which has zero or infinite values. What am I missing?


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What'd I tell you about looking at my signature bitch!

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2223373 -

  What are you trying to figure out?  Before entering in a purely theoretical conversation you must state a question or premise. 

Your life began and will end.

The life of a planet begins and ends. 

The life of the universe is said to have began with God and will end with God. 

.... Mass has a definite measurement but 'space' can be infinitely large as well as infinitely small.

I am not even sure this is an relative response to what you said but there ya go.

:smile:
XFaith
"Measure Life with Love to find your ballence"

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2223543 -

The mass and energy of the universe has always existed, yes, and that's what the law of conservation is all about. The Big Bang theory states that all mass/energy was confined to a very small point at some time in the distant past.

The Big Bang theory is an excellent description of the universe down to about 10^-43 seconds after it came into existence. Beyond that, we are unable to explain how the universe would have behaved at such small distance scales (below the Plank Length).

String theory does hint at an answer, though. One of the symmetries involved with it shows that a dimension behaves exactly the same above the Plank length as it does at it's reciprocal below the Plank length. What I mean is, a dimension with a diameter of, say, 2xP (where P=Plank length) follows the exact same physics as if it were only 1/2xP in diameter. There is physically no difference between tightly curled dimensions and extended dimensions. Using this idea, I would say the most logical answer is that the Universe was exactly the same as it is now before the Big Bang.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2223803 -

Well put Trendal..
Can't we just say God,or whatever supreme being you worship is The Force made the earth...(if your religious)
And if your Scientific, and sane you stick with the big bang...and That force is mass/energy?

*I don't know if that make's sense to you, but i swear when i was typing it it made sense*

Edited by funkymonk (01/06/04 05:07 PM)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: trendal]
    #2225128 -

> I would say the most logical answer is that the Universe was exactly the same as it is now before the Big Bang.

There are also theories floating around right now that claim that the laws of physics that exist today did not exist in the same way during the early universe... and that even to day the laws of physics are changing slightly.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Seuss]
    #2225239 -

Quote:
There are also theories floating around right now that claim that the laws of physics that exist today did not exist in the same way during the early universe... and that even to day the laws of physics are changing slightly.


The laws of physics that apply today couldn't be the same during the first second after the big bang -- that would be impossible. Expansion had to happen at a much faster rate during the first second or so, or the gravity would have just pulled everything right back together.

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: micro]
    #2225373 -

The difference in laws is probably a result of the 4 fundamental forces which exist today being combined during the early expansion peroid into one single unified force. If you pile enough energy into a given volume of space, the forces "condense" together to form unified forces (such as the Electroweak force, the combination of EM and the Weak nuclear).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2226160 -

There is the possibility that another universe was greated at the same time as this one with negative mas and negative energy.

Negative mass and energy would possibly behave the same in the negative universe as mass and energy do here.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2226182 -

Antimatter?

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: micro]
    #2226205 -

Kind of like antimatter, except that matter + antimatter still equals energy.

This negative matter + matter = nothing.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2227791 -

What I was stating is that the law of mass/enery states that energy and matter can neither be created nor destroyed only change into each other. If this is so then this primordial egg had to consist of something else other then the two if the two can not be created from nothing(negating a begining)only canged for the univerese to be able to have a begining then then the matter and/or energy the early universe contained had to be created.


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What'd I tell you about looking at my signature bitch!

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2227806 -

That's the uncaused cause -- most people will say God created it.

You're asking where the universe comes from -- I say "who knows?" The big bang is just kind of a way of rewinding everything to see what happened a really long time ago.

The creation thing is a circular argument and will never be answered.

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2233094 -

all this thinking from reading this made me dizzy

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2237413 -

I think there is a common confusion that the Big Bang is the "absolute beginning of everything".

Sure the universe probably was generated by a Big Bang but that doesn't mean that:

a) there was nothing before the big bang
b) the big bang was the only thing existing at that time

There could have been stuff existing before and during the big bang. Personally I think its more rational to believe that there was always something, than to believe there was nothing and then the universe magically appeared.


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: pattern]
    #2238644 -

What if there is always everything?

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: micro]
    #2238799 -

Now I'm going to have to go back to my creation scheme. You can't (as far as I know) get something (energy, matter) from absolutely nothing. To me this is indicative of a static universe. So in my mind the universe is, being able to not arrive of nothingness, is infintely old. It seems weird to me that having exsisted forever (and that's really what it would be if I'm right in my assumption) before our little bang, for whatever that means, it would suddenly conjugate all these finite values for no reason. I'm not sure how to word this because most are probably thinking of how one easily gets finite values from an infinte source (there is an infinite amount of numbers but you can still count from 1 to 10), but... uhhhh... fuck! I think I'm going to give this one up :rolleyes:. Thanks for all the ideas :sun:, peace Flux.


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What'd I tell you about looking at my signature bitch!

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Flux]
    #2238971 -

*sigh*

The Big Bang theory does not state that everything in existence came from nothing. It states that everything came from an infinitely dense singularity. Even this is subject to slight change, when you add things like string theory into the equation.

The universe could not have existed forever without a major rewriting of physical law including the rejection of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Since it is these laws in the FIRST PLACE which state that nothing can truely be created/destroyed, only converted, to deny those laws throws the whole argument out the window.

Another impact of the Laws of Thermodynamics is that Entropy is always increasing. As we have not yet reached a state of total entropy, the universe could not have existed as is forever - it had to come "into existence" at some specified point in the past.

How it came into its current form of existence is the big question.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: trendal]
    #2239143 -

So which came first, the universe or the laws of physics?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: Seuss]
    #2239182 -

Lol, Seuss!!! I think the universe determines the laws of physics, and according to string theory, it does!

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)

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Re: Am I missing something? Or is the big bang bullshit? [Re: micro]
    #2240096 -

Bingo :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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