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Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Are translations any good?
    #21607875 -

I'm from Romania and while we do have some great authors (Emil Cioran, Mircea Eliade, Mihai Eminescu, Lucian Blaga, George Bacovia) that had written in Romanian, it's really disheartening that I can't study authors like Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Rilke, Wittgenstein, Freud, Jung, Kafka, Heidegger that had written in German and the ones that had done so in French like Sartre, Camus, Deleuze, Céline, Foucault, Bataille and many others.
       
Right now I'm really depressed that I wasn't born in France or Germany because I feel that I'll waste my time with translations as everytime there's something lost through them, either the author is misinterpreted, either he's badly translated or, simple as that, some expressions and words are untranslatable. I can read in English, and I've greatly enjoyed Shakespeare and Shelley but, as far as I've read, the translations in English of the authors above are not that great either.
         
So, what is there for me to do? Should I start to learn German and French? Or the translations (in Romanian / English) can keep the fidelity of the text?

Edited by rGhost (04/28/15 07:11 AM)

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Re: Are translations any good? [Re: rGhost]
    #21608247 -

i think you are right that to really delve into a complicated text on a seriously academic level you probably need to learn the language..

however i dont think there is anything wrong with reading translations, you can certainly find good ones that have often been condoned by the authors themselves.. umberto eco for example has his own go to translator, even though he speaks both italian and english fluently.. so if you do the research you should be able to find decent ones...

one can also ask where do you draw the line? how much do you need to know? do you need to understand the spoken language at the time it was written (for language is always changing)? do you need to understand completely the period? do you need to have read the authors complete works? do you need to have read their contemporaries? do you need to know the authors' biography? (and which biography is the right one)?..

it could be said that all of the above would help in the proper comprehension of a text.

i think the philosophy stuff you want to read is probably better suited to translation than literature or poetry, as it uses a technical language and so long as the translator manages to frame the concepts in the right way you should be able to get a good idea about what the author is talking about..

that all said, i am a native and ignorant english speaker :shrug:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

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Re: Are translations any good? [Re: rGhost]
    #21612701 -

Translations can be very good, it depends on the translator.  Erik Blackall is a great one for German, as is Burton Pike.  German actually translates very well into English, especially poetry, as a lot of the words are quite similar, and even have continue to rhyme in both languages.  Something is certainly lost in translation -- but this has been known forever, and people who translate generally try to do their best. 

I would say the translation of a piece, who translated it, is usually very important; what if they didn't understand it at all?  Then of course, the translation would be very rough.  But there's no need to despair; we only really learn from our own experience anyway, so if Schopenhauer's talking about something and I've never experienced it, I won't get what he's talking about, but if I have, I will know exactly what he means.  I've generally followed the practice of simply putting a book down, if it's not good, or if it's ridiculously convoluted (or even usually, just a little convoluted), one can find the most complex ideas of philosophy expressed in an understandable manner, if one keeps looking.

Convolution shouldn't be mistaken for being identical to complexity, and even complexity can be expressed in a beautiful, logical manner.

I would also keep in mind, since you mentioned Schopenhauer, one of the things he emphasized extremely, extremely highly was the value of thinking for yourself.  On a level with McKenna on that one.  I don't think anyone expressed it as strongly as S., to work it all out for yourself, so to speak.


--------------------
Call me not rebel, though { here at every word
                          {in what I sing
If I no longer hail thee  { King and Lord
                          { Lord and King

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Re: Are translations any good? [Re: rGhost]
    #21612921 -

rGhost said:
I'm from Romania and while we do have some great authors (Emil Cioran, Mircea Eliade, Mihai Eminescu, Lucian Blaga, George Bacovia) that had written in Romanian, it's really disheartening that I can't study authors like Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Rilke, Wittgenstein, Freud, Jung, Kafka, Heidegger that had written in German and the ones that had done so in French like Sartre, Camus, Deleuze, Céline, Foucault, Bataille and many others.


I saw one in Romanian of a collection of Jung's works and it seemed to be well-written at least, although I don't know how concordant it was with the original. I downloaded a bunch of Schopenhauer in Romanian as well but, again, don't have a comparison to the original.  Generally speaking, any reproduction of something is an approximation and there's nothing wrong with analyzing for yourself if there's something of merit in a given work, translated or not. Ideally, the concepts and ideas should transcend semantics. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Are translations any good? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #21613199 -

I would add that if you are dredging through something in language you'd might as well understand really what's under or in those cracks and crevices of language, that is closest to essential, and that is ancient Greek.

Sure, aside from etymology, if you want to truly understand Heidegger (ah indeed to understand Heidegger) I hear you need to know German. But this is not just language apparently - it is learning to speak a language to understand what Heidegger means by "everyday existence" or to be some kind of knob kneed German gangster, just so on top of that you are then understand some recondite philosophy.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with either German language or philosophy, but the idea of jumping through hoops for philosophy like that is at a certain point bullshit, I think. And if its bullshit with Heidegger, its bullshit with someone like Wittgenstein for sure.

Picking up a few words is always helpful though right? About as much as philosophy in general asks for...

I think if there is one philosopher it might be worth really learning German for, it would be Nietzsche, because clearly (something generally well appreciated in translations) he could write.

Then again, I'd say the main struggle with understanding Nietzsche is not language, but the sometimes pretty specific basis  of his criticism of 19th century Europe. There are a lot of obscure references along those lines, which is something else to learn than language entirely.

If you dredge for some essential language, for the joints of philosophy to amble along, make it Greek. Then you can be like Heidegger and reflect this in your own way or whatever. Best to just taste that kind of thing. The opposite thin blooded linguistic philosophy has its own obsessions with word noises too.

Anyway,thats my best two cents, find a middle ground with contemporary philosophy, and learn the Greeks, as best as you can.

Edited by Kurt (04/30/15 01:03 AM)

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