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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Depth Versus Surface Area
    #2124404 - 11/20/03 06:57 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

I was curious as to which variable, in the general concensus, lead to more fruitbody production, the depth of the bulk substrate, or the total surface area.  Would a container that has 1 sq foot of surface area that is 4" deep produce as many fruitbodies as a container that has 1 sq foot of surface space and, say, 10" of depth?

I personally believe that their is some "middle ground" that needs to be reached.  I don't believe that a tray 1" deep with 1 sqft of surface space would be "ideal", that is, I belive it's fructification would be somewhat limited due to the lack of a thick mycelia structure.  What is the recommended depth for ideal fruit performance, no matter what the surface area?  3-5" I'd say personally, thats just a guess... Let me know your thoughts :smile:


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Offlinefleshofgods
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2124408 - 11/20/03 07:06 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

I'm a little interested too.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: fleshofgods]
    #2124410 - 11/20/03 07:07 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

The question was about the substrate depth though.....


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Offlinefleshofgods
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: Anno]
    #2124413 - 11/20/03 07:13 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

yeah. i changed my post after i realized what a mistake i was making.


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2124614 - 11/20/03 10:31 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

TMC contains some very useful information on depth. You'd be well advised to limit depth to ~<6-7" imo. The deeper a substrate is the more self generated heat it will produce. A large surface area can only go so far in dissipating this heat, also a larger surface area is, by definition, more prone to contamination. I suggest you read the "substrate chapter" of TMC and form your own conclusions. From what I can recall (ahem) for ~1sqft of surface area a dense 3-5" substrate is ideal for cubes. Deeper substrates have proven to yield longer and produce larger fruits.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: debianlinux]
    #2124653 - 11/20/03 10:55 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Debian's right, but a matter of practicality comes into play. When you're dealing with straw it's easy to get 4"-6" depths, but IMHO, straw can be a pain-in-the-ass, and if you aren't growing for money it really isn't nessecary.

I usually use like 1/4" of substrate -- if you can case this evenly you'll still get big flushes, and the casing will be pretty much exhausted after the second flush, which is good, IMO, because the less time you keep the casing around, the less chance of contamination. The only problem is you will get those occational big flushes of really tiny shrooms.

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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: debianlinux]
    #2124667 - 11/20/03 11:00 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:
TMC contains some very useful information on depth. You'd be well advised to limit depth to ~<6-7" imo. The deeper a substrate is the more self generated heat it will produce. A large surface area can only go so far in dissipating this heat, also a larger surface area is, by definition, more prone to contamination. I suggest you read the "substrate chapter" of TMC and form your own conclusions. From what I can recall (ahem) for ~1sqft of surface area a dense 3-5" substrate is ideal for cubes. Deeper substrates have proven to yield longer and produce larger fruits.





Read that chapter. From my readings, and I may have forgotten, it only mentions the depth that agaricus growers use. I think that 3-5" is best too, tho, I'd just liket some sort of objective "proof" or a good knowledgeable source saying so


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Offlinetuco_ramirez
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2124701 - 11/20/03 11:22 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

a 1/4" of substrate. that's a pretty thin layer... do you spread verm on the bottom, then sub, then case? all in all, about 1" total?


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2124733 - 11/20/03 11:40 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

My personal experience is depth is more valuable than surface area. If you want robust fruitings. I have had more fruit (weight) from a glad disposable tupperware (about 4-5in) than a flatcake that was about the size of a cookie sheet.

I don't have the numbers anymore, but personally I think depth is key.

I try and go 6 inches, and the more surface area, the more fruit, but the depth gives you the robust fruit.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: tuco_ramirez]
    #2124762 - 11/20/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

tuco_ramirez said:
a 1/4" of substrate. that's a pretty thin layer... do you spread verm on the bottom, then sub, then case? all in all, about 1" total?




Yeah -- that's it. You just have to crumble the substrate really well so you can get an even layer.

Raadt -- larger depths will certainly fruit more per surface area, but do you really think 1 6" casing will produce more than 6 1/2" casings the same size ( = the same amount of substrate) ?

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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: Raadt]
    #2124770 - 11/20/03 11:53 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Raadt said:
My personal experience is depth is more valuable than surface area. If you want robust fruitings. I have had more fruit (weight) from a glad disposable tupperware (about 4-5in) than a flatcake that was about the size of a cookie sheet.

I don't have the numbers anymore, but personally I think depth is key.

I try and go 6 inches, and the more surface area, the more fruit, but the depth gives you the robust fruit. 





Thanks for the help bud, I appreciate it :smile:


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OfflineIvan
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2129363 - 11/22/03 06:24 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

What I've seen is that it really is a question of proportions i'll explain, Grow kits I used to make were 1 liter and a kind of flat cake (about 400ml of spawn) with a layer of peralite on the bottom and a layer of coco on top. Result was a thick flush of smaller shrooms due to the small surface area. When I used Ikea storage trays (10 to 15 liter) in the same relitive proportions the result was much bigger mushrooms but further spread out. I got bigger proportional harvests from the big trays. If you are going to grow in trays I would advise a 35 to 40% rule in general, works for me ok. 35% for bigger trays and 40% for smaller.
More then that seem to just be a waste but will result in more flushes but I usaly stop after 3 flushes because of the contamination risk.



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Offline95rh
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: Ivan]
    #2129368 - 11/22/03 06:33 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

I'm pretty sure in the TMC it says 6" is the optimum but can't find the exact reference. Thinner substrate = smaller fruits. Use a min of 1/4" casing and I believe more than 2" is kinda a waste.

rh95


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: 95rh]
    #2130494 - 11/23/03 02:34 PM (13 years, 13 days ago)

Commercial growers use about that much -- I'm sure they do it for a reason -- they don't want tiny-ass fruits. A much bigger substrate will result in always getting decent-sized fruits, no matter what, but IME, once dealing with 2" or less it really doesn't matter. I get large and tiny fruits off this whole range.

If someone has a limited amount of substrate it's probably good to use like 1" of substrate, or so IMO, but, of course, every grower will have their own preferences.

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: micro]
    #2132933 - 11/24/03 06:20 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

I'm seriously thinking about making all of my casings as Micro has described. The benefits are that you can harvest most of each grow at one time and not have to worry about nursing the casing through multiple flushes. lso, small fruits are a heap lot easier to dry than huge ones. I've had to dry some pretty bigguns this year from both my outdoor grows and some from the fields and they took forever to dry. The shrooms that came off of my first casings ever were tiny but there were loads of them. They dried super quick. There really is no need to grow monsters except for show and tell.


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InvisibleJared
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2134632 - 11/25/03 12:25 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)



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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: Jared]
    #2134681 - 11/25/03 12:48 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

WTF?

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OfflinePsilopleix
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Re: Depth Versus Surface Area [Re: micro]
    #2134880 - 11/25/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Mycelium will continue to produce fruiting bodies until all the nutrients are depleted. Surface area is the big thing here, if I do a 4 gallon spawn in a deep container but small surface area it will produce a nice flush of large fruits. It will eventually flush like this 5 or 6 times til its spent. If i use the same amount of substrate with a larger surface area it will flush more mushrooms, with large fruits, but only a few good flushes. In the end, I end up with an equal amount of mushies.

wtf is that substrate 1/4" thick? It looks like a thin crust pizza

:rolleyes: 


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