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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20606589 -

zappaisgod said:
Communism cannot exist without coercion and the agent of that coercion is a state.  I suspect that wikipedia is defining "state" too narrowly.  Consider a food coop of hippie dippy loons.  At some point there is a governing group that decides what is expected of the members.  If the members fail they are expelled.  That is state like behavior.


So if a society acts like a society they automatically have a state? No.

Maybe you should brush up on your Marx, since you've already made it abundantly clear you don't even understand the prescursor to communism (socialism).


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20606622 -

The Ecstatic said:
zappaisgod said:
Communism cannot exist without coercion and the agent of that coercion is a state.  I suspect that wikipedia is defining "state" too narrowly.  Consider a food coop of hippie dippy loons.  At some point there is a governing group that decides what is expected of the members.  If the members fail they are expelled.  That is state like behavior.


So if a society acts like a society they automatically have a state? No.

Maybe you should brush up on your Marx, since you've already made it abundantly clear you don't even understand the prescursor to communism (socialism).


:picard:Neither socialism nor communism can exist without coercion and coercion can only exist through a state.  There is no such thing as society,  People acting together are  a state


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20606651 -

People acting together are a society.  A sovereign society is a state.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: Enlil]
    #20606984 -

Perhaps for practical reasons, although Marx would define the state differently.


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20607575 -

Just becsuse its written down on paper somewhere that communism can be defined as stateless does not make it physically possible to exist in reality.  "Mickey mouse" is defined as a talking mouse with other talking animal friends, your definition of communism is as ficticious in reality as the definition for mickey mouse - pure fantasy.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: Enlil]
    #20607616 -

Enlil said:
People acting together are a society.


No.  My construction crew acts together but it is not a society.  There is no such thing as society
Quote:
A sovereign society is a state.


A gun is a state.  That is the sine qua non.  There is no state without coercion.  Even hippie communes prove this


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: Shins]
    #20607907 -

Shins said:
Just becsuse its written down on paper somewhere that communism can be defined as stateless does not make it physically possible to exist in reality.  "Mickey mouse" is defined as a talking mouse with other talking animal friends, your definition of communism is as ficticious in reality as the definition for mickey mouse - pure fantasy.


Well said and true!


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #20615892 -

If anarchy can exist without a state so can communism.

Your red scare fervor must have caused you to miss my very first post in this thread where I said communism and anarchy are equally unfeasible.


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20616393 -

Quote:
If anarchy can exist without a state so can communism.


this statement is so stupid it hurts. Anarchy is simply a lack of state, communism requires state coercion to work. One depends on the state existing, the other depends on a lack of state.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #20617307 -

psyconaught said:
Quote:
If anarchy can exist without a state so can communism.


this statement is so stupid it hurts. Anarchy is simply a lack of state, communism requires state coercion to work. One depends on the state existing, the other depends on a lack of state.


Anarchy is a society/economy without a state.
Communism is a society/economy without a state.



When your brain processes that, you can PM me an apology.


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20617726 -

The Ecstatic said:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
If anarchy can exist without a state so can communism.


this statement is so stupid it hurts. Anarchy is simply a lack of state, communism requires state coercion to work. One depends on the state existing, the other depends on a lack of state.


Anarchy is a society/economy without a state.
Communism is a society/economy without a state.



When your brain processes that, you can PM me an apology.


:lolwut:

Both will have some sort of state. It's human nature to create some form of government.

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: BlackWidow]
    #20619164 -

It's human nature to form a society, but not government.

If someone doesn't like the rules of society, they can leave it. If you want to be the survivalist type, that's fine, you don't get to reap any of the rewards of that society.

I don't understand what's so difficult about it. No coercion is necessary.


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20619325 -

The Ecstatic said:
It's human nature to form a society, but not government.

If someone doesn't like the rules of society, they can leave it. If you want to be the survivalist type, that's fine, you don't get to reap any of the rewards of that society.

I don't understand what's so difficult about it. No coercion is necessary.


Do you have any examples of large societies without any form of government?

I agree with the second statement. To me the benfits of society are much too great to leave, but it's a nice thing to think about every once in a while.

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: BlackWidow]
    #20619372 -

There is no such thing as society


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20619552 -

The Ecstatic said:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
If anarchy can exist without a state so can communism.


this statement is so stupid it hurts. Anarchy is simply a lack of state, communism requires state coercion to work. One depends on the state existing, the other depends on a lack of state.


Anarchy is a society/economy without a state.
Communism is a society/economy without a state.



When your brain processes that, you can PM me an apology.


communism requires a central authority to designate and destitute resources and work orders. How you don't understand that is a coercive state is beyond me.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: BlackWidow]
    #20619573 -

BlackWidow said:
The Ecstatic said:
It's human nature to form a society, but not government.

If someone doesn't like the rules of society, they can leave it. If you want to be the survivalist type, that's fine, you don't get to reap any of the rewards of that society.

I don't understand what's so difficult about it. No coercion is necessary.


Do you have any examples of large societies without any form of government?

I agree with the second statement. To me the benfits of society are much too great to leave, but it's a nice thing to think about every once in a while.


True communism has never existed on a meaningful scale, unless you want to count primitive early human groups.

For the record, I don't think it's remotely feasible, at least in today's world, but that doesn't mean the concept itself is flawed. Fusion won't happen for a long time, because we aren't intelligent enough, but that doesn't mean the concept itself is ignorant, we're simply too ignorant to implement it.


or something, I'm pretty baked at this point.


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #20619579 -

psyconaught said:
The Ecstatic said:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
If anarchy can exist without a state so can communism.


this statement is so stupid it hurts. Anarchy is simply a lack of state, communism requires state coercion to work. One depends on the state existing, the other depends on a lack of state.


Anarchy is a society/economy without a state.
Communism is a society/economy without a state.



When your brain processes that, you can PM me an apology.


communism requires a central authority to designate and destitute resources and work orders. How you don't understand that is a coercive state is beyond me.


No, it doesn't.

People can agree upon terms without needing coercion. As I've said, if you don't agree with community rules, you're free to leave the community.


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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20619831 -

you're describing voluntaryism, which fits within the ideals of an anarcho capitalist society.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #20619932 -

In any form of government, the dominant personality types will find a way to rule. It is up to the common people, in any society, to free themselves from the yoke, to whatever degree possible. Most people need government, to tell them how to act and get along with others. Until each earth human can see themselves as individuals, we will continue to get bees and sheep for citizens. Myself, I am a philosophical anarchist, with no illusions about it working in today's world. There is no more new frontier.


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Rocks speak to me, and tell me this:
The Hell Creek formation is a gigantic slab of rocks that covers several western states. It contains an account of the dinosaurs' demise.  In the late Cretaceous period, the first Cannabis species appear, and soon after, all the non-bird dinosaurs disappeared. Obviously, marihuana killed the dinosaurs. That giant meteor that smacked the yucatan peninsula right afterwards, coincidence.

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Re: Do Libertarians Seem As Crazy As Feminists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #20620407 -

psyconaught said:
you're describing voluntaryism, which fits within the ideals of an anarcho capitalist society.


No.

Anarcho-capitalism is hugely different.


With communism: we all share the Apple tree
With anarcho capitalism: whoever controls the Apple tree gets to do whatever they want with it


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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