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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #20565740 -

The Ecstatic said:
Agreed.

But most Americans would agree on restricting money, not outlawing it.


So you agree that restricting money would be restricting speech.  Most American's don't recognize this simple fact, which is why they're in favor of restricting money.  If they understood that it meant restricting speech, they likely wouldn't be in favor of it.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20565746 -

Enlil said:
The Ecstatic said:
Agreed.

But most Americans would agree on restricting money, not outlawing it.


So you agree that restricting money would be restricting speech.  Most American's don't recognize this simple fact, which is why they're in favor of restricting money.  If they understood that it meant restricting speech, they likely wouldn't be in favor of it.


Restricting money is not restricting speech. Restricting money is equalizing speech between citizens.

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon] * 1
    #20565759 -

ColorDragon said:
Restricting money is equalizing speech between citizens.


Equalizing it to near-zero, yes.

Free speech is the fundamental right of every republic.  Without it, a republic cannot exist.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20565772 -

Giving more voice and power to those with money is a recipe for dystopia and greed trumps good. Who could want that but those who benefit at the expense of all?

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon] * 1
    #20565794 -

Limiting political speech for anyone is tyranny for everyone.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #20565866 -

Granting political speech to some of the moneyed interests is tyranny for everyone, too, of a privatized, unchecked, sort.

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon] * 1
    #20565887 -

Everyone is granted political speech.  Government has no business deciding who can and cannot speak.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #20565913 -

I wouldn't mind if they did limit speech, when the speech is inciting harmful confusion and disorder in society. Interests with money have no obligation to the truth, justice, social justice, environmental justice. If we allow them to shape our future, we are basically all fucked. We bear the burden of the consequences of their failures to implement sound wise policy, but they have no incentive beyond their fiduciary responsibility to shareholders and/or their own portfolios.

Edited by ColorDragon (09/14/14 02:03 PM)

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon] * 1
    #20565940 -

At least we've gotten to your core values:

ColorDragon said:
I wouldn't mind if they did limit speech



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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20565945 -

Yes, I believe that human nature leads to large scale sociopathy when left unchecked by regulation. As evidenced by the world around us? So, is that what you embrace? What idol do you worship?

Edited by ColorDragon (09/14/14 02:11 PM)

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20565964 -

ColorDragon said:
I wouldn't mind if they did limit speech, when the speech is inciting harmful confusion and disorder in society.


That's a slippery slope you propose to climb......

Enlil said:
Everyone is granted political speech.  Government has no business deciding who can and cannot speak.



I have a workmate who absolutely insists that corporations can give as much money as they want to political campaigns.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon] * 2
    #20566076 -

I worship nothing, but I highly value rational thought.  Limiting speech limits the application of rational thought.  When you allow a government to decide which ideas can and can't be discussed, you have given your rational facilities up in exchange for that of someone else.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20566115 -

Should moneyed interests that profit from CO2 emission be permitted to perpetuate the myth to the public that limitless CO2 emission is A-OK or that there does not exist scientific concensus about global climate change and its causes and costs?

Should for-profit private prison, re-education, law enforcement equipment and chemical weapon manufacturers, and hyperconservative religious zealots be permitted to endlessly widen the war on drugs, domestic "terror," and arbitrarily "immoral" behavior?

Should oil and gas extraction interests be permitted to contaminate the surface and deep water formations? Should injection disposal wells be permitted? Is it okay that nobody has to disclose what chemicals they're spilling, volatilizing into the atmosphere, and injecting into the ground? Is it okay they they can put these up in suburban back yards and across from public schools in some districts?

Should the agricultural business be permitted to endlessly find new ways to impose their regime of herbicide, pesticide, fungicide, GMO crops upon growers and consumers without notice? Should they be able to distribute chicken contaminated with antibiotic-resistant salmonella without being shut down? Is it okay that they're selectively breeding a supercrop of antibiotic-resistant bacteria in the name of lower overhead?

Money says one thing. Any sort of good will says another.

Edited by ColorDragon (09/14/14 02:49 PM)

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20566139 -

We can place restrictions on political money without the country exploding.


Just like we can restrict/outlaw access to certain weapons without the country exploding.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20566284 -

The remedy for false speech is more speech.  Allowing the government to decide what is and isn't true is beyond foolish.  It's dangerous.  When the government has the power to decide that, any freedom in the nation is illusory.

Ecstatic: Apples and oranges.  The right to bear arms is a completely different situation.  The power to control information dissemination is the power to control public opinion.  Public opinion is, and has always been, a far more powerful weapon than any protected by the 2nd amendment. 

As I've said before...giving the government the power to control political speech is giving the government absolute control over the nation.  Your idea of somewhat limiting political speech is shortsighted and dangerous over the long term.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20566294 -

Enlil: people listen to false speech if it confirms what they want to believe. They dismiss opposing speech.

What is the solution to this harmful false speech?

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20566365 -

ColorDragon said:
Enlil: people listen to false speech if it confirms what they want to believe. They dismiss opposing speech.

What is the solution to this harmful false speech?



Let the government decide because they know best?  :lolsy:


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: starfire_xes]
    #20566377 -

starfire_xes said:
Let the government decide because they know best?  :lolsy:


Hell no, LOL.

It's not for the government to decide which speech is okay to amplify with money and which speech is not. Allow no political free speech to be amplified with money, wrt elections. Especially given its toxic impact on in-office elected officials who spend more time in office raising money for their next campaign than doing their jobs, as has become the norm.

Edited by ColorDragon (09/14/14 03:30 PM)

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20566383 -

The Ecstatic said:
Citizen X said:
Great question!
I would love to hear the responses from our republican/conservative friends.
I'd imagine being a conservative you'd not want that kind of thing?


It's quite a predicament, isn't it?

It's extremely difficult for conservatives to be elected without soft money, so it's probably hard for conservative voters to take a stand against it.


I haven't seen any indication that soft money is spent more on Republicans than on Democrats.  How could one not consider the editorial page and much of the news articles in the NY Times as soft money contributions to liberals?  Everything Michael Moore has ever done is soft money contribution to liberals.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20566488 -

ColorDragon said:
Should moneyed interests that profit from CO2 emission be permitted to perpetuate the myth to the public that limitless CO2 emission is A-OK or that there does not exist scientific concensus about global climate change and its causes and costs?


I profit from CO2 emissions as does everybody who uses cheap energy.  There has been an 18 year hiatus in warming.  I think it is important that people be free to point out that the climate change alarmists are making a lot of money scaring people about nothing
Quote:
Should for-profit private prison, re-education, law enforcement equipment and chemical weapon manufacturers, and hyperconservative religious zealots be permitted to endlessly widen the war on drugs, domestic "terror," and arbitrarily "immoral" behavior?


The war on drugs comes from a liberal nanny state position. Religious zealots come in all stripes.  For instance the climate freaks' religious zealotry..  There is nothing arbitrary about most of what is considered immoral.  What chemical weapon manufacturers?  Without prisons and law enforcement equipment you would probably be a slave or dead because that would mena assholes like me would have to deal with it ourselves.
Quote:
Should oil and gas extraction interests be permitted to contaminate the surface and deep water formations? Should injection disposal wells be permitted? Is it okay that nobody has to disclose what chemicals they're spilling, volatilizing into the atmosphere, and injecting into the ground? Is it okay they they can put these up in suburban back yards and across from public schools in some districts?


There is a whole host of nonsense there and if anything you are making the case for more speech.  Fracking has been going on for a long time and nothing you mention has happened
Quote:
Should the agricultural business be permitted to endlessly find new ways to impose their regime of herbicide, pesticide, fungicide, GMO crops upon growers and consumers without notice? Should they be able to distribute chicken contaminated with antibiotic-resistant salmonella without being shut down? Is it okay that they're selectively breeding a supercrop of antibiotic-resistant bacteria in the name of lower overhead?


They impose nothing, they are not allowed to distribute salmonella chicken and I have no idea what you are talking about in re breeding a super-crop of antibiotic resistant bacteria.  The existence of antibiotics alone creates antibiotic resistant vbacteria.  It is called evolution and it cannot be denied.
Quote:
Money says one thing. Any sort of good will says another.


I suspect your definition of good will and mine are vastly different.  Activism starts at home.  Get off the internet, stop using electricity you don't generate yourself, grow all your own food and build your own house from logs you cut yourself with a handsaw and an axe.  The fact of that matter is that all the shit you decry is precisely that which has afforded you the luxury to whine


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