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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: qman]
    #19986255 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
rackem said:
a wage increase will kill small business.. doesnt anybody see that?

also, the cost for goods/manufacturing in the us, will skyrocket due to the fact that the owners of said small businesses will be trying to make up for their already alarming losses trying to compete with china.

i dont see how anybody can see any good coming out of this except more money in their check while the company is still around.

people should take responsibilty and make cuts to make ends meet or stride to get a higher paying job. shouldnt rely on the damn government forcing companies to take care of their personal laundry for them.


"a wage increase will kill small business"

What does that tell us?

Why can't wages for small businesses go higher today? Wages have been raising for 80 years in the US, why can't they move higher without killing small businesses?

I will tell you why, the US economy has been structurally damaged from globalization, we are now competing with third world labor, not good.


1. Small businesses typically don't rely in third world labor.

2. A minimum wage increase would absolutely not kill small businesses. If I'm paying my employee a dollar more because I have to, so do all the other stores in the strip mall. And that's an extra dollar every hour in those consumers' pockets, which (if I'm a good business owner) will lead them to spend a little more at my store.

Doesn't anybody see that? No? You're just regurgitating the same BS you've heard time and time again without bothering to actually think about it?

The minimum wage has fallen from its peak in 1978, when we had a much stronger working and middle class. So.....your argument just got raped and dumped in the river.


I agree with you that a minimum wage increase would not kill ALL small businesses, but today small businesses are suffering from the tough economic environment, there is no doubt about that fact.

Comparing 1978 to 2014 is beyond stupid, a higher minimum wage (in real terms) is the RESULT of economic prosperity, not the CAUSE.

A strong working middle class is the result of having lots of manufacturing jobs, we don't have that today. A strong working middle class is the result of having a tight labor market, we don't have that today.

For the record, I'm in favor of an increase, I just don't think it really creates economic prosperity.


Maybe, maybe not.


But 40%, that's almost half, of the US economy is consumer spending.

I'd be willing to bet putting money into the hands of consumers would benefit the economy.


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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19987980 -

akira_akuma said:
zappaisgod said:
Enjoywho said:
zappaisgod said:
If you make minimum wage you have no business having children.  Unless you are a teenager you have defective genes.


:rolleyes:

Whatever old man. Knew you'd have something dumb to say.


Let me guess.  You were a teenager when you had children.

Anybody in the work force for more than 1 year who is still making minimum wage is retarded


fuck shut your old tired mouth or i'll fuck shut it for you. you probably don't even work anymore, you feeble old fuck.




I don't think so, Mary.


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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19988530 -

I became friends with a former boss who manages a couple high volume retail food joints. Recently I was talking with him about this and gave me an interesting bottom line on the whole minimum wage thing. Without writing out all the numbers, the just of it is the business owner ends up making ~250k per store each year in net profit. He said if all the employees saw a 50% wage increase from 8/hr to 12/hr it would mean the net profit would decrease to by only ~50k to ~200k year.

Lets also keep in mind the disturbing income inequality in the country. Something like 10% of the population controls something like either 80 or 90% of the wealth which is crazy. A rich person losing 50k doesn't mean much as far as standard quality of life. But to a poor person 10k is huge since it is sometimes the difference between meeting basic needs and going without (or relying on govt to subsidize their low wages).

So with min wage increases you hear all the doom and gloom about slashing work force or raising prices but the real reality that you dont hear is that business owners would simple have to settle for smaller payouts at the end of the year.

Sure its debatable. Many say they deserve to have grossly disproportionate payouts since they own the business. Others would argue that we consider ourseslves an advanced first world country and rich ppl can afford to make a less in order to give the people working for them a livable wage.

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Nova]
    #19988553 -

So you think its perfectly ok to take money away from those who are successful? What if they decide the reward is no longer worth the effort and shut down the business rather than pay it out of their pocket? If they can't pass along the higher costs of business they will look for something else to do. So naturally they will raise prices along with everyone else. The worker is back to square one and those with fixed incomes get the shaft.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19988596 -

a dollar more is great with a fulltime job thats 200 dollars more a month

that could pretty much save a lot of low class people from losing a job in the first place if they are actually responisble


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http://bunkpolice.com/basic-test-kit/
Vienna Declaration
Salvia Divinorum The Docudrahma

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Nova]
    #19988609 -

So?  How much did the mouthbreathing cashier pay to buy the franchise?

http://www.entrepreneur.com/franchises/mcdonalds/282570-0.html

Startup Costs, Ongoing Fees and Financing
Total Investment: $1,031,350 - $2,182,050
Franchise Fee: $45,000
Term of Franchise Agreement: 20 years, renewable
Financial Requirements
Liquid Cash Available: $750,000
Operations
88% of all franchisees own more than one unit. Absentee ownership of franchise is NOT allowed. (100% of current franchisees are owner/operators).


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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19988679 -

zappaisgod said:
akira_akuma said:
zappaisgod said:
Let me guess.  You were a teenager when you had children.

Anybody in the work force for more than 1 year who is still making minimum wage is retarded


fuck shut your old tired mouth or i'll fuck shut it for you. you probably don't even work anymore, you feeble old fuck.




I don't think so, Mary.


Mary gets a vacation.


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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19988726 -

Stonehenge said:
So you think its perfectly ok to take money away from those who are successful? What if they decide the reward is no longer worth the effort and shut down the business rather than pay it out of their pocket? If they can't pass along the higher costs of business they will look for something else to do. So naturally they will raise prices along with everyone else. The worker is back to square one and those with fixed incomes get the shaft.


If going from 250k profit to 200k profit is so repulsive to the owner that he shuts the business down, then so be it. There will be an infinity long line of people that will gladly take over to fill the gap and happily accept the 200k.

For the minimum wage debate the wealth gap in the country is the elephant in the room. You have these business owners crying like babies that their profits will shrink 5% when they are taking home huge and increasing annual compensation, while workers are seeing lower wages. Then their employees have no choice but to use thousands of dollars of government aid just to survive.

You have to look at reality. The economy is deflating for the working class. The upper class is not only insulated from the decline but actually getting wealthier. With the circumstance we are in (service economy since we shipped production/manufacturing over seas), fast forward a few years/decades and we will see a huge percentage of americans working 40+ hours a week, but since they dont make enough the govt will be subsidizing their income.

Businesses will survive and adapt to challenges. A whole population depending on the govt for needs will end very badly. So I think it is acceptable to ask business owners to shoulder the deflation along with the rest of the working people because it is the lesser of two evils.

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Nova]
    #19988842 -

I agree things are screwed up, but jacking the min is not going to help. Lets take your idea a little farther, why not raise the min to $100 an hour? Then everybody will be doing great, won't they? If a little is good, lets go for a lot?

>If going from 250k profit to 200k profit is so repulsive to the owner that he shuts the business down, then so be it. There will be an infinity long line of people that will gladly take over to fill the gap and happily accept the 200k

If it meant just putting their hands out and getting the money, sure, lots will line up for that. But if they have to put up $1M to $2M then the line gets a whole lot shorter. Plus they have to work at it long hours. Those who are willing and able do it already. Few are.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19990917 -

Here's the minimum wage future...

http://www.cnet.com/news/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/

Quote:
McDonald's hires 7,000 touch-screen cashiers

Would you like some microchips with that burger? McDonald's Europe strikes another blow against human interaction by installing 7,000 touch-screen computers to take your order and money.



Yup... much more than 7000 jobs gone (different workers, multiple shifts). Keep fighting for that minimum wage increase.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19991075 -

A choice between no job or the min as it is today may be what low skill uneducated workers face in the future. Start working on your skill sets now if you want to survive.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19991216 -

Certain countries like Canada have varying levels of minimum wages based on age. Gets rid of the "teenagers don't deserve blah blah blah".

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19991275 -

Stonehenge said:
Start working on your skill sets now if you want to survive.


That... and playing video games in mommy's basement doesn't count as a skill set.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Cinnor]
    #19991359 -

There's making more then enough resources to go around.  There's supposedly more homes than homeless people and we waste tons of food because of inefficient resource management and reusable and sustainable energy is becoming more and more efficient and cost effective.  The idea that anyone should suffer is fucking pathetic.  Income and wealth inequality is destructive and generally unfair.  People say life isn't fair but with human ingenuity, we can make it more fair.

Minimum wage hikes and getting corporations and the wealthy to pay taxes is only one aspect of a solution but there's a lot more people forget about resource management and efficient usage.  Empathy is also an important issue when it comes to creating a harmonious system where everyone has the basics.

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Cinnor]
    #19991394 -

Cinnor said:
There's making more then enough resources to go around.  There's supposedly more homes than homeless people and we waste tons of food because of inefficient resource management and reusable and sustainable energy is becoming more and more efficient and cost effective.  The idea that anyone should suffer is fucking pathetic.  Income and wealth inequality is destructive and generally unfair.  People say life isn't fair but with human ingenuity, we can make it more fair.

Minimum wage hikes and getting corporations and the wealthy to pay taxes is only one aspect of a solution but there's a lot more people forget about resource management and efficient usage.  Empathy is also an important issue when it comes to creating a harmonious system where everyone has the basics.


:cryaboutit:


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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19991411 -

ROFL thanks man. Your cynicism is just what I needed :wink:

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Cinnor]
    #19991416 -

:grin:


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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19991436 -

I'm serious though.  Humans, for all our self reflective knowledge are consistently fucking up things because of our inability to see past our noses (because of how self-reflective and egotistical that skill makes us) The paradoxes make life interesting though.

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Cinnor] * 1
    #19991554 -

>There's supposedly more homes than homeless people

So those who paid to have the house built should donate it to a slacker or someone who unfortunately lost their home? You go first, pay for a house and then donate it.

> The idea that anyone should suffer is fucking pathetic.

Most suffering is self inflicted.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Senate Democrats Join Republicans to Block Minimum Wage Hike [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19991567 -

Stonehenge said:
>There's supposedly more homes than homeless people

So those who paid to have the house built should donate it to a slacker or someone who unfortunately lost their home? You go first, pay for a house and then donate it.

> The idea that anyone should suffer is fucking pathetic.

Most suffering is self inflicted.


Yea sorry cinnor I am going to have to agree with stonehenge just giving away free stuff will not solve anything. It could very easily make the situation worse as you would have a huge underclass demanding more and more for nothing not exactly a sustainable sitution.


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