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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19734582 -

psyconaught said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
psyconaught said:
and what i hate about liberal logic is that they think throwing money at a problem is a magic bullet that solves everything.


Money is necessary for just about every issue (defense, education, infrastructure, etc).  I wouldn't call it magic, but just the way it is.  :shrug:


of course money is required for things to operate. But more money does not mean a better output. Efficiency with said money is what is important, not the the volume of money itself.


Of course.  But if you spend below the efficiency threshold, you shouldn't expect good services.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19734598 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
psyconaught said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
psyconaught said:
and what i hate about liberal logic is that they think throwing money at a problem is a magic bullet that solves everything.


Money is necessary for just about every issue (defense, education, infrastructure, etc).  I wouldn't call it magic, but just the way it is.  :shrug:


of course money is required for things to operate. But more money does not mean a better output. Efficiency with said money is what is important, not the the volume of money itself.


Of course.  But if you spend below the efficiency threshold, you shouldn't expect good services.


i've noticed the common thread among liberals however is to assume the efficiency threshold isn't being met just because a program is not doing well. They do not even consider the fact that maybe we should be reforming programs to maximize efficiency AND THEN talk about higher funding if that really is the issue. But its always the same old rhetoric, xyz program is not doing well, well the only solution is to figure out even more shit to tax and throw more money at the problem. Instead of seeing if underfunding is the issue in the first place.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19734693 -

wtf is an efficiency threshold, most things(everything?) that the government spends money on have diminishing returns.  If we hired the single least qualified, cheapest person to accomplish as many government functions as possible it would be ultra efficient.  If it's supposed to be the point where the money could achieve more effect spent elsewhere, or not collected; neither liberals or libertarians want to surpass that, they just disagree, amongst themselves as well, on the metric for measuring how well spent money is or what the ultimate goal is. As an argument saying that liberals think more spending is always worth it or a good thing is a fallacy, straw man to be specific.  Liberals reform programs just as often as conservatives.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: rhave]
    #19734787 -

Quote:
If we hired the single least qualified, cheapest person to accomplish as many government functions as possible it would be ultra efficient.


false.

Quote:
As an argument saying that liberals think more spending is always worth it or a good thing is a fallacy, straw man to be specific.  Liberals reform programs just as often as conservatives.


That is not a straw man nor any other fallacy. In general liberals tend to favor more spending and higher taxes as opposed to cuts and reforms that cut. How anyone could argue otherwise is beyond me.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19734972 -

I am all for 'infrasturcture spending' and 'social programs' and 'spending on education'

Just as long as it is at the state level.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19735290 -

psyconaught said:
In general liberals tend to favor more spending and higher taxes as opposed to cuts and reforms that cut.


You're doing it again. I didn't say this wasn't the case. By reform I didn't mean cut, merely try to improve the efficiency, maybe that was an misunderstanding. Not that liberals don't cut things as well.
psyconaught said:
[liberals] think throwing money at a problem is a magic bullet that solves everything.


that's not true, no one thinks that, so of course it easy to argue against, thus the straw man.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: rhave]
    #19735820 -

Spare me.  Their answer to every single government failure is that not enough money was spent on it.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19736338 -

zappaisgod said:
Spare me.  Their answer to every single government failure is that not enough money was spent on it.


I have a backyard that needs a new patio.  How about you do the job for $20.  And if I don't like the results I'll let everyone know what a crappy company you run.

C'mon Guys nothing is free.  :facepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19736403 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
zappaisgod said:
Spare me.  Their answer to every single government failure is that not enough money was spent on it.


I have a backyard that needs a new patio.  How about you do the job for $20.  And if I don't like the results I'll let everyone know what a crappy company you run.

C'mon Guys nothing is free.  :facepalm:


You may not like what a private company does but if you hired the government there unionized workers would run over budget and take twice as long. A private company actually has a reputation to uphold so they have an incentive to do a good job the state has no such incentive since its very existence is based upon the theft or tax of people who actually run the economy.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19736455 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
zappaisgod said:
Spare me.  Their answer to every single government failure is that not enough money was spent on it.


I have a backyard that needs a new patio.  How about you do the job for $20.  And if I don't like the results I'll let everyone know what a crappy company you run.

C'mon Guys nothing is free.  :facepalm:


at least you own up to the fact that you think we need to be spending more money unlike rhave.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19736595 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
You may not like what a private company does but if you hired the government there unionized workers would run over budget and take twice as long.


Most Government infrastructure projects are contracted out to private companies.

Gilgamesh18 said:
A private company actually has a reputation to uphold so they have an incentive to do a good job the state has no such incentive


Government (Democrats?) wants to do as much for the public as possible within the budget they have.  They contract work out to the private sector and those with the best value get the job.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19736811 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
You may not like what a private company does but if you hired the government there unionized workers would run over budget and take twice as long.


Most Government infrastructure projects are contracted out to private companies.



Good


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19736995 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
zappaisgod said:
Spare me.  Their answer to every single government failure is that not enough money was spent on it.


I have a backyard that needs a new patio.  How about you do the job for $20.


No.
Quote:
  And if I don't like the results I'll let everyone know what a crappy company you run.


Go ahead.  And I'll tell every contractor you're a freakshow nutcase who should be avoided
Quote:
C'mon Guys nothing is free.  :facepalm:


That's right, nothing is free.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19740062 -

YOU SIR,ARE A MINARCHIST!!!!!!


--------------------


The above is hypothetical, when it is illegal.

Psychedelics are performance enhancers for the philosopher.

Knowledge and wisdom are one and the same.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19748525 -

zappaisgod said:
Of course.  Libertarians are not anarchists and L. Ron Paul does not define libertarianism.  He defines jackassism.


I don't understand your disdain for Ron Paul when he's done more to advance libertarianism than any politician in recent history. What you don't agree with his foreign policy? Fuckin get over it. Infighting is stupid.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Aedan]
    #19749214 -

Ron Paul is a moron.

"" "Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."""


He also has no concept of irony. He hates the fact that our govt allows abortions. He doesn't believe the govt has any business in such matters so he wants to use the govt to disallow it .


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My 3 year old cyan patchhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17135850

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20937710


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Aedan]
    #19749632 -

Aedan said:
zappaisgod said:
Of course.  Libertarians are not anarchists and L. Ron Paul does not define libertarianism.  He defines jackassism.


I don't understand your disdain for Ron Paul when he's done more to advance libertarianism than any politician in recent history. What you don't agree with his foreign policy? Fuckin get over it. Infighting is stupid.


I can assure that I, a lifelong libertarian identifier, resent greatly the notion that that asshole has become the poster boy for libertarianism.  He is not.  He is an isolationist anti semitic jerkoff.  He has advanced nothing and is mocked as a dingbat almost universally.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psilynut]
    #19749659 -

psilynut said:
Ron Paul is a moron.

"" "Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."""


He also has no concept of irony. He hates the fact that our govt allows abortions. He doesn't believe the govt has any business in such matters so he wants to use the govt to disallow it .


He wants the states to have the authority to do what they want.  I actually agree with that stance on the Constitution.  I think abortion should generally be allowed but there is nothing in the Constitution that forces states to permit it.  Brennan's decision was an abortion in and of itself.  Not because it was a bad piece of legislation but because it was a piece of legislation.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19750175 -

zappaisgod said:
Aedan said:
zappaisgod said:
Of course.  Libertarians are not anarchists and L. Ron Paul does not define libertarianism.  He defines jackassism.


I don't understand your disdain for Ron Paul when he's done more to advance libertarianism than any politician in recent history. What you don't agree with his foreign policy? Fuckin get over it. Infighting is stupid.


I can assure that I, a lifelong libertarian identifier, resent greatly the notion that that asshole has become the poster boy for libertarianism.  He is not.  He is an isolationist anti semitic jerkoff.  He has advanced nothing and is mocked as a dingbat almost universally.


Non-interventionalist =/= isolationist

Just because he wants to stay out of Palestine doesn't make him an isolationist or anti semitic. He wants to treat them like a sovereign nation and stay out of entangling alliances. We already pumped enough foreign aid and military equipment to Israel I'm sure they can defend themselves. Sounds like you took a bite off the neocon propaganda which vehemently tries to smear him any way they can.

And he has a massive following by the way and is attributed to the creation of the tea party movement after his 2008 presidential run. The only people who mock and deride him are the establishment who see him as a threat because he is actually consistent and makes sense.

How about going after the RINOs and neocon dipshits like John McCain or something.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Aedan]
    #19750331 -

Aedan said:
zappaisgod said:
Aedan said:
zappaisgod said:
Of course.  Libertarians are not anarchists and L. Ron Paul does not define libertarianism.  He defines jackassism.


I don't understand your disdain for Ron Paul when he's done more to advance libertarianism than any politician in recent history. What you don't agree with his foreign policy? Fuckin get over it. Infighting is stupid.


I can assure that I, a lifelong libertarian identifier, resent greatly the notion that that asshole has become the poster boy for libertarianism.  He is not.  He is an isolationist anti semitic jerkoff.  He has advanced nothing and is mocked as a dingbat almost universally.


Non-interventionalist =/= isolationist


I know that.  I was quite precise in my use of the word.  L. Ron goes far beyond non-interventionalist.  I also think that is a fucking nebulous bit of idiocy.  Just what, exactly does, that mean? 
Quote:
Just because he wants to stay out of Palestine doesn't make him an isolationist or anti semitic. He wants to treat them like a sovereign nation and stay out of entangling alliances. We already pumped enough foreign aid and military equipment to Israel I'm sure they can defend themselves. Sounds like you took a bite off the neocon propaganda which vehemently tries to smear him any way they can.


We aren't in Palestine.  Who ever suggested we were going to be?  I am a fucking neo-con and I have read the anti-semitic shitbag's newsletter to know that it isn't just about Palestine
Quote:


And he has a massive following by the way and is attributed to the creation of the tea party movement after his 2008 presidential run. The only people who mock and deride him are the establishment who see him as a threat because he is actually consistent and makes sense.


Only by retards.  He does not have a massive following outside the ranks of disaffected and idiotic college sophomores.  And the Tea Party was a spontaneous uprising spurred By Ric Santelli's rant, not anything the jackass did.
Quote:
How about going after the RINOs and neocon dipshits like John McCain or something.


I loathe McCain.  I am a neocon.  I think it is the only sane response to an ever shrinking and ever more hostile world.


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