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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17476495 -

Icelander said:
Have you ever shroomed or dropped acid at the main stage of a psy festival? Do that a few times and then tell me life is not worth living

I have many times. At Burning Man three times and many others since the late 60s.  I'm still depressed much of the time.  Now what?


Shpongle and festivals like these make me depressed when i trip.

Dont ask why, im just weird...


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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Re: Depression [Re: Rahz]
    #17476503 -

>> The simple fact is that all behaviour is self serving.

>> I have no desire to be harsh

I didn't say your comment was harsh, I conveyed that it arbitrarily assumes the depth of CS' experience. 

That all behaviour is self-serving: this opinion has been fashionable for about a century, but it is not a scientific fact.  There are motivations, considerations, and feelings deeper than self-servitude which may be important components of CS' ongoing contemplation. 

Self-service is one level of thought and behaviour.  There are other levels.  Individuals who think, feel, and act on those levels tend to undergo the experience of depression.  A major component of such depression is a sense of isolation: a feeling that other people do not, cannot, or will not understand or empathize.  Taking this as a starting point, it seems to make sense to speak in the broadest possible existential terms when addressing people struggling with depression, rather than imposing our own assumptions about the nature, depth, and quality of their personal experience.

Ultimately it will be CS who magnetizes with a given perspective.


>> you see what you want to see) but I call it the way I see it. 

Leaving aside the almost dramatic irony of this combination of words, this is a perfect summary for the exact opposite of a helpful disposition to carry whilst relating to someone experiencing depression.

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17476568 -

No one here to my knowledge has ever made a convincing case that we are not self serving with each and every act.  However some acts serve us better than others.  Some of the most self serving acts are of great benefit to others. A mother and child immediately come to mind.  A woman has a child because it serves her needs.  She takes care of that child for the same reasons but that also greatly serves the child's needs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17476588 -

Icelander said:
Have you ever shroomed or dropped acid at the main stage of a psy festival? Do that a few times and then tell me life is not worth living

I have many times. At Burning Man three times and many others since the late 60s.  I'm still depressed much of the time.  Now what?


Have you measured how long a non-depressed period lasts after a proper LSD drop at said stage? For me it's a few months, and the "few" gets longer with each drop. Rather than conclude this is not a good solution, I choose to conclude psychedelics should be taken regularly.

I ate some food yesterday. Guess what? Today I am hungry again. Guess food doesn't work. Now what ? :smile:

Have you considered joining a nice Santo Daime or Native American Church congregation? Partake regularly, in ceremony, and you will see a lot less depression in your life. It's not a one time thing that lasts forever, but it does last quite a bit if you do it right.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16

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Re: Depression [Re: Spacerific]
    #17476598 -

I've taken hundreds of doses in my 60 years.  The last time I was depressed within minutes of coming down.

I'm pretty sure taking drugs with people who worship jesus isn't going to help a whole lot.  :lol:  Frankly though I've tried to connect with some groups and it was a major turn off after a short time.  I do hang well with dogs however.

I find ceremony especially depressing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: liquidlounge]
    #17476630 -

>> Shpongle and festivals like these make me depressed when i trip.  Dont ask why, im just weird...

Last time I tripped at a festival was with LSD.  Infected Mushroom was playing.  I was standing far back and to the side.  What I saw was an almost entirely spontaneous amalgam of temporarily differentiated varieties of matter, writhing and wrangling around like skeletons in a cauldron, completely entangled and entwined with temporarily differentiated varieties of loosely organized energy.  Twisted in this mess of tangled energy were hundreds of filaments of an especially disorganized kind of energy called consciousness, which was sufficiently vibrant to provide the basis for as well as drive the whole thing, but far too dim to manage it in a way that accomplished anything more than a burgeoning cacophony of bones, blood, bodies, and bass.  It was a bulging, boiling a mass of ignorance, suffering and death, constantly falling apart, peppered with thousands of microscopic instances of pleasure and bliss.

And none of that was even close to as horrifying as the sensation that what I was witnessing was more real, that it was the result of a veil being lifted from my awareness, and not a distortion being applied to it.

Needless to say that was the last time I took LSD at a music festival.

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17476669 -

Quote:
I'm pretty sure taking drugs with people who worship jesus isn't going to help a whole lot.  :lol:


That is a bitch indeed my good man :laugh: Lucky for me they speak and sing in Portuguese, which I don't speak, nor will I ever, precisely because I don't want their Jejus Mary Joseph talk in my head ruining a good trip.

Quote:
I've taken hundreds of doses in my 60 years.  The last time I was depressed within minutes of coming down.



Well you got me there, I'm just over half your age, and quite fresh in the psychedelics scene. Since I found the good gifts of the gods, I can honestly say depression is an absolutely minor part of my life, if any. Not sure if this is a path open to all, or if I'm one of the lucky few who found the right thing at the right time, or if perhaps my involvement in art improved the results.

I only know the things I put in my first post will usually go a long long way to a man's balance, at least for me they did. Sleep, food, water, sex, love, belonging, meaning, fun, movement and psychedelics. The more there is of these, the better off one is likely to be. And feel.

Epicurus says we need 3 things for happiness: friends, freedom and an analyzed life. Are a few of them wobbling (as is often the case for us all)?

If none of this nor the psychedelics help, then I am at the end of my wisdom, hope another will have better answers to share on this.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16

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Re: Depression [Re: Spacerific]
    #17476698 -

It's different for everyone friend.  My childhood depressed me big time.  I got hard wired depressive.  I've tried just about everything.  Now I have learned to live with it.  I manage to have some very good times in spite of it.  But for me no matter now the world is a wash.  Like Ped says I believe I've seen beneath a veil that we really ought not to look beneath for very long.  I can't seem to look away anymore.  Still I'm done with the complaining as I stated in my first response in this thread.  If you go back and see what I said you'll see where I'm coming from and that I have managed a sort of truce with reality. We have agreed to disagree. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17476821 -

Well I brought up the Santo Daime and NAC for a very specific reason:

I took psychedelics by myself and they worked OK, but not amazingly spectacular and unforgettable. Even strong trips remained isolated, not integrated in actual every day life.

Then I heard about Ayahuasca, and that it's the strongest stuff one can probably take on this planet. I went for a ceremony, and was put off by the Jesus spam in there. However the long, long hours of music and sustained singing and group energy did something that the previous trips didn't.

For lack of better words, I will say they put music in my body. A very specific body and muscle thing that didn't happen with previous trips, or it happened very moderately.

After doing the Ayahuasca ceremony twice, I had my first acid trip, at my first psy festival. It happened to be the Boom, which goes on for a long 9-10 days. This, again put music in my bones and neural pathways, that I didn't have before.

This leads me to believe that it's not just about dropping this or that, it's more like a pilgrimage. It's about being boomed and cleaned by the bass for many long days on end, or in a ceremony, it's about floating in a sustained rythm for many, many hours.

I stress that I didn't see these effects before the Ayahuasca ceremonies, and before doing them my attitude was "Just gimme the drink, I'll put on headphones and figure it out myself, learning from the plant." Now after the fact I am pretty sure that's not how it works, or it's at least not the best and most effective way to do it.

To anybody battling real depression (or addictions for that matter) please seriously consider an actual Ayahuasca ceremony, or a Peyote ceremony in a real NAC sweat lodge. It's not the same as regular tripping, at least for me it wasn't, at all. Yet it made subsequent tripping much, much more interesting and effective. For what it's worth, this was my experience so far.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17476824 -

Icelander: the brother I have but've never known.

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Re: Depression *DELETED* [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #17476895 -

Post deleted by anothertom

Reason for deletion: theyre on to me


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Re: Depression [Re: anothertom]
    #17476934 -

Can't you guys see this is just another trend, since most left-of-center intellectuals have these opinions?

If life isn't good enough, it is 100% unequivocally irrevocably your fault. Absolutely, without a doubt. Take that as the truth and go from there.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17477011 -

Icelander:

>> No one here to my knowledge has ever made a convincing case that we are not self serving with each and every act.

My contention is that the formless, featureless, boundless continuum of clear, phenomenal-conscious-existence is eternal by virtue of its selflessness-in-action.  The unspeakable, the unnameable, that from which nothing can be removed, or whatever other bombastic profanity can be deployed in reference to it.

Sincerely, though, I am as confident about that as I am romantic about it.



circastes:

>> Can't you guys see this is just another trend, since most left-of-center intellectuals have these opinions?

>> If life isn't good enough, it is 100% unequivocally irrevocably your fault. Absolutely, without a doubt. Take that as the truth and go from there.

This is just an extension of radical individualism, which is the biggest trend going in popular thinking right now.  The dogmatic punchline is a bit antiquated though - who started that one again?  The Christians, the Jews, or was it the Muslims?

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17477103 -

Quote:
Leaving aside the almost dramatic irony of this combination of words, this is a perfect summary for the exact opposite of a helpful disposition to carry whilst relating to someone experiencing depression.


Not ironic but obvious. It's a difference of opinion. Your interpretation of my comment assumes much about what it indicates, or what limitations it attempts to place on the OP. The suggestion is that you are reading into my reply what you want to read into it, when in fact it could have a variety of connotations. There is a reason my first reply was what it was and I did a follow up after that bit of correspondence, so if you wish to critique my message you should focus there rather than the ambiguous and complex nature of self service.

I will of course stand behind that phrase you've decided to pick, but it's a bit off topic to dwell on it. The preference would be to reply to my 2nd post which contained the actual advice.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

To shrink a person's vocabulary is to shrink their capacity to think.

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Re: Depression [Re: Rahz]
    #17477185 -

Well, I suppose if I'm to take issue with my perception that you are operating on assumptions, I must remain open to the possibility that I am committing the same error simultaneously and by virtue of seeing it and pointing it out.  Wow, we're really spinning now!  :yinyang: :ooo:

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17477220 -

I know what you mean man, but you have to be proactive about your beliefs. If you see the world as being destroyed by our mere existence (which I see your point and agree with a lot of what you said), than try to live your life to make the world a better, healthier place to live for all of Mother Nature's creatures. I guarantee you'll truly be happy if you do what your heart feels is right.

“If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. ... We need not wait to see what others do.” - Gandhi


--------------------

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Re: Depression [Re: Spacerific]
    #17477222 -

Spacerific said:
Well I brought up the Santo Daime and NAC for a very specific reason:

I took psychedelics by myself and they worked OK, but not amazingly spectacular and unforgettable. Even strong trips remained isolated, not integrated in actual every day life.

Then I heard about Ayahuasca, and that it's the strongest stuff one can probably take on this planet. I went for a ceremony, and was put off by the Jesus spam in there. However the long, long hours of music and sustained singing and group energy did something that the previous trips didn't.

For lack of better words, I will say they put music in my body. A very specific body and muscle thing that didn't happen with previous trips, or it happened very moderately.

After doing the Ayahuasca ceremony twice, I had my first acid trip, at my first psy festival. It happened to be the Boom, which goes on for a long 9-10 days. This, again put music in my bones and neural pathways, that I didn't have before.

This leads me to believe that it's not just about dropping this or that, it's more like a pilgrimage. It's about being boomed and cleaned by the bass for many long days on end, or in a ceremony, it's about floating in a sustained rythm for many, many hours.

I stress that I didn't see these effects before the Ayahuasca ceremonies, and before doing them my attitude was "Just gimme the drink, I'll put on headphones and figure it out myself, learning from the plant." Now after the fact I am pretty sure that's not how it works, or it's at least not the best and most effective way to do it.

To anybody battling real depression (or addictions for that matter) please seriously consider an actual Ayahuasca ceremony, or a Peyote ceremony in a real NAC sweat lodge. It's not the same as regular tripping, at least for me it wasn't, at all. Yet it made subsequent tripping much, much more interesting and effective. For what it's worth, this was my experience so far.



Well my take on this is that there is no way I could ever really know what would work for anyone but me. The variables are endless and to think I can even comprehend my own variables is task enough.  :shrug:

Btw I know some of the Daime folk in my town and IMO they are not paragons of mental health.  Just sayin.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17477239 -

My contention is that the formless, featureless, boundless continuum of clear, phenomenal-conscious-existence is eternal by virtue of its selflessness-in-action.

That's a dandy mouthful Ped.  I'm not going to try and understand it just in case that might ruin the moment. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17477693 -

>> That's a dandy mouthful Ped.

My debate technique basically consists of leading people around conceptual mazes until they become either so intimidated or so confused that they just give up and agree with me, or lose all confidence in their original position, all the while hoping that this collapsing of will happens before they catch on to what I'm really up to.

From mid 2009 through 2011, I deployed a slight modification of this technique to sell approximately $1.8M worth of pianos, earning roughly $90,000 worth of commission before taxes.  So wrought with guilt I was for so easily manipulating so many people into parting with so much of their money, and so depressed from feeling like a kind of titanic psychological sniper for 45 hours each week, I spent nearly all of my disposable income on ketamine, alcohol, and other drugs to numb it all down, eventually culminating into a complete nervous breakdown.  After being released from the hospital, I shaved my head and parked myself in a Buddhist temple, where I continued the entirely pathetic, narcissistic, but most importantly futile effort of trying to escape the person I had become by emulating an imagination of the man I wished I was.  Every single action in service of and enslaved to my own self, a closed system, my emotional entropy producing a kind of bloating, gaseous suffering as the only qualifiable gain from my exhaustive effort to escape suffering.

As it turned out, that's what did the trick.  No, not the temple part, the whole damn paragraph.  As follows:

Now, whenever I hear somebody talk about how we should all just "live, laugh, love", "get laid more often", "exercise more", or whatever other shallow, insultingly axiomatic piece of shitty advice, it really pisses me off.  I think you can see why.  And so when I see people dispensing these same sort of asinine emotional tic-tacs to those whose vortex of depression is so large that I can empathize with it and have compassion for it--wuh-oh, unselfish emotions--from an entirely different location on this massive, floating tectonic plate, there arises within me a spontaneous wish to intercept or cancel the irritating vexation before it can annoy the other person as much as it annoys me.  And there you have it, a selfless act, arising by itself, from within myself, because of myself, because of empathy, because of compassion for someone else--the two emotions that got me into this whole mess of guilt and self-loathing to begin with--and it feels absolutely great.  Suddenly I'm part of an open system, my swelling happiness and emotional diversity finally, after three decades of life, showing tangible gains, and all I had to do was precisely nothing.

At the present day, I am basically just a parody of my old miserable self, doing what I know how to do, except now in caricature, not taking very much very seriously, even when I am being absolutely serious.  As I am being right now.  Absolutely.  Serious.

So there it is, folks.  That's the formula.  The Rx.  If you're unhappy, just wait, it'll all come full circle and you'll wake up as innocent and beautiful as the day you were born.  That is, assuming you can manage to frustrate yourself just enough to hit upon that result before the whole effort up and kills you.  If you're clever enough to catch on to yourself but not so clever that you can keep dodging yourself, chances are you're gonna hit the wall and become happy before you hit the pavement and become a statistic.

Suffering is the cause of happiness.  Suffering happens within the much larger environs of happiness, not the other way around.  Figuring this out is only a matter of pitting yourself against yourself until + and - cancel each other out.  Now, with a remainder of 0, there is only this spectacular field of marvellous beauty, which is paradoxically both fluid and crystalline at the same time, both there and not-there at the same time.  This is basically the same exact concept I have been attempting to deliver throughout the entire course of the day, but I guess I got a little carried away with myself and made it all sound just a little too pretty to be real, causing our "primitive minds" to "reject the programming", as Agent Smith put it, seeing as how we seem to require just enough grinding brutality on top of the whole thing to make the truth pack a sufficient wallop as to be palatable.  As it turns out, we like szechwan.

So, Happy New Year!  :uhoh:  :psychsplit:  :laugh:

Edited by Ped (12/31/12 07:23 PM)

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Re: Depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #17477765 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
Because when i see those happy go lucky people that actually think they can make a difference in this world i want to punch them and tell them.  "What you do doesn't fucking matter, we are all fucked, stop trying to pretend we can fix this place"


You might not be able to make a major difference in the world but you can make a difference in your own little world.  You can make a difference on your property or in your community.

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