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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Mycjunky]
    #17372689 -

I think the racism angle comes from Ron Paul saying things like "The Civil Rights Act of 1964 not only violated the Constitution and reduced individual liberty."

It appears that many libertarians support the idea that businesses should be allowed to racially discriminate in the sense that they can refuse to serve customers because of that customer's race. I understand that libertarianism in theory means that libertarians are not racist. But it's a bit much to espouse a politics that will clearly increase the frequency of racial discrimination and then wash your hands of any unintended consequences, even if they were obvious to an observer.

Given the overlap between libertarians and Christian white supremacists, this is not a big leap of faith. It isn't awfully cynical to suggest that if it's the government stopping people from acting in an aggressively racist manner, than any aggressive racists out there might see the government as an enemy and become attracted to libertarianism.

This is not so much a criticism of what libertarianism ought to theoretically be in a perfect world as an observation that in so far as the government stops some evil, anyone wanting to do evil will want to restrict government, and there's a ready-made home for such people in libertarianism.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor] * 1
    #17372877 -

It is quite clear from your posts so far that you haven't even the faintest idea what Libertarianism as a political philosophy entails. As such, your posts on the subject have no worth whatsoever, since whatever system you are foaming at the mouth about is not Libertarianism.

I echo the advice given already in this thread: in order to avoid beclowning yourself further, you really should spend a half hour or so reading up on the philosophy.


Phred


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Phred]
    #17372951 -

Phred said:
It is quite clear from your posts so far that you haven't even the faintest idea what Libertarianism as a political philosophy entails. As such, your posts on the subject have no worth whatsoever, since whatever system you are foaming at the mouth about is not Libertarianism.

I echo the advice given already in this thread: in order to avoid beclowning yourself further, you really should spend a half hour or so reading up on the philosophy.

Phred


Mate I've spent hours reading about it. I know what libertarianism is.

This is my problem: what libertarianism is, and what people in the political landscape who call themselves libertarians claim it is, appear to be two very different things. I am not a clown just because I refuse to drink the Kool-Aid.

I get told, on this thread, that libertarianism is about no coercion. An example I am given of a society based on this principle is a slave state in the middle of a genocidal war of conquest.

Tell me, what should a reasonable man conclude from this?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor] * 3
    #17373157 -

Quote:
Mate I've spent hours reading about it. I know what libertarianism is.


Your posts quite clearly show that you don't.

Quote:
This is my problem: what libertarianism is, and what people in the political landscape who call themselves libertarians claim it is, appear to be two very different things.


All kinds of people claim all kinds of stupid things. This is true not only of some Libertarians, but also of some Anarchists, some Socialists, some Christians, etc. There are people who to this day insist Richard Nixon was a conservative. Why, then, limit your excoriation to self-identifying Libertarians who get one or more aspects of Libertarianism incorrect?

Quote:
I get told, on this thread, that libertarianism is about no coercion. An example I am given of a society based on this principle is a slave state in the middle of a genocidal war of conquest.


See, this is why no rational person can take your posts seriously. I presume the "slave state" to which you refer is the USA? Please inform us why you believe the USA was involved in a "genocidal war of conquest"?

The Constitution of the United States of America is the most profoundly Libertarian political document ever produced. The fact that some of the states comprising the United States of America declined to extend its protections to some of their residents does nothing to invalidate the Libertarian nature of that document.

Quote:
Tell me, what should a reasonable man conclude from this?


That not everyone you meet on the internet is articulate enough to flawlessly describe Libertarianism to the point where there can be no possible misunderstanding of its tenets.

The thing is, the same can be said about many self-professed adherents of any political philosophy. Or of any philosophy, period. Or of any religion. To get all ferocious about attacking self-professed Libertarians (who may in fact not be Libertarian at all)...

Quote:
...self-righteous narcissists...

...complete mentalists...

...mental defectives...

...ridiculous crock of shit...

...pseudoreligious economic doctrine ...

...a political platform so obviously insane...

...Libertarians are, to me, a subset of mentally defective people...


while not applying the same standards to all the faux-Anarchists and faux-Socialists and faux-Animists etc. out there makes you look ridiculous. That is of course your right, but don't get all butthurt when someone calls you on it, especially when you claim:

Quote:
You see, I have always considered myself a libertarian...


From your comic distortion of Libertarian principles it is clear you are one of those very people you rail against: someone who believes himself to be a Libertarian and then gets the most basic aspects of it all wrong.

The irony... it burns!


Phred


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Phred]
    #17373185 -

When someone starts a thread called "I can't stand Anarchists/Animists/Communists" I'll weigh in. Until then, there's not much I can do.

Regarding the genocidal war of conquest, well you do know who lived in what is now the USA 500 years ago? Or did you think God created North America with white peope already there? The natives were exterminated by a government that I was told, in this very thread, is a shining example of libertarianism. I was taken aback by this.

You have a point when you say that I'm railing against a false image of libertarianism. I know this, and every intelligent person reading this thread knows that I know this.

But when I get told that I'm stupid for not understanding libertarianism, and then get told that genocidal slave owners are libertarians, I think it's fair to say that the confusion lies elsewhere.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17373265 -

Quote:
The natives were exterminated by a government that I was told, in this very thread, is a shining example of libertarianism. I was taken aback by this.


Actually, no, they weren't exterminated. Some of the Native Americans attacked and killed some of the European settlers. Some of the European settlers attacked and killed some of the Native Americans. But neither group was "exterminated".

Nor - with a few isolated exceptions - was the majority of the killing of Native Americans done at the behest of the American government.

And of course, governments - being populated by fallible humans - never act one hundred per cent in accordance with their constitutions one hundred per cent of the time in one hundred per cent of situations that arise. This is true not only of governments which started out with constitutions based on Libertarian principles, but also those which started out with Socialist constitutions.   

Quote:
You have a point when you say that I'm railing against a false image of libertarianism. I know this, and every intelligent person reading this thread knows that I know this.


Which is why you are getting slammed. What is your point in pretending not to understand Libertarianism? What is your point in insulting viciously in post after post those who actually do hold Libertarian principles? You "sarcasm" or "tongue-in-cheek" posts that you now claim you were doing as some kind of joke fell flatter than a pancake. All they did was make you look like the typical buffoonish troll who hasn't the faintest idea of what Libertarianism is but is quite adept at burning down whole fields of strawmen of his own construction.

You may think you were being clever. I assure you, you weren't.


Phred


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Phred]
    #17373334 -

Phred said:
Quote:
The natives were exterminated by a government that I was told, in this very thread, is a shining example of libertarianism. I was taken aback by this.


Nor - with a few isolated exceptions - was the majority of the killing of Native Americans done at the behest of the American government.

And of course, governments - being populated by fallible humans - never act one hundred per cent in accordance with their constitutions one hundred per cent of the time in one hundred per cent of situations that arise. This is true not only of governments which started out with constitutions based on Libertarian principles, but also those which started out with Socialist constitutions.   



So what you're saying is that a libertarian government is not strong enough to prevent a genocide from taking place in its own territory? Wow, that's pretty much what I'm afraid that a modern libertarian government would enable.

Yes, governments don't always act in perfect accordance with their constitutions. But claiming to base a country on freedom and liberty, while allowing slavery to happen in that same country, well that's hardly a minor faux pas.

I'm not pretending not to understand libertarianism. I'm attacking the false libertarians by pointing out their dishonesty and errors of reasoning. These false libertarians are hurling themselves into the gatling guns of my cold honest logic - I suppose that means I'm getting "slammed". I didn't expect that this thread would serve as the honeypot that it has, so I've learned something from all this. Which is, afterall, why we're here.

Another qustion: what's the deal with sometimes capitalising Libertarianism and sometimes spelling it libertarianism. Are these two different things?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17373484 -

Quote:
So what you're saying is that a libertarian government is not strong enough to prevent a genocide from taking place in its own territory?


And there it is again: your insistence on constructing straw men. There was no "genocide". And the more famous of the incidents occurred not in actual states subject to federal government authority anyway, but in areas not yet incorporated as states - the frontier. The Wild West, to coin a phrase.

Quote:
Wow, that's pretty much what I'm afraid that a modern libertarian government would enable.


If that is what you actually believe rather than just trolling for effect - as you now claim you were doing earlier - then how on earth did you ever decide you were a Libertarian? Did you or did you not write this:

Quote:
You see, I have always considered myself a libertarian...


On what basis do you consider yourself a Libertarian, then?

Quote:
But claiming to base a country on freedom and liberty, while allowing slavery to happen in that same country, well that's hardly a minor faux pas.


And that original contradiction was resolved, wasn't it? By the federal government, remember?

Quote:
These false libertarians are hurling themselves into the gatling guns of my cold honest logic...


Not in the least. Quite the reverse, in fact. Logic dictates that if you really believe your earlier comments regarding Libertarianism are accurate criticisms of Libertarianism rather than some straw man parody of it, then you are the one in error, not the people responding to you, since you have consistently from your first entry into this thread misrepresented Libertarianism and core Libertarian tenets.

Has the federal government of the United States of America been at all times a perfect exemplar of an ideal Libertarian government? No, duh! So what? That does nothing to invalidate the philosophy of Libertarianism, nor does it mean Libertarians are mental defectives or self-righteous narcissists or obviously insane pseudo-religious dupes. All it means is that the citizens of the USA weren't as scrupulous as they should have been at throwing out some of the people they elected to represent them at the federal level.

You claim you understand the political philosophy of Libertarianism yet your every post indicates otherwise. Here's your chance to show that your previous posts were just badly expressed rather than fundamentally in error: supply to the audience your understanding of Libertarian tenets re... oh... let's start out with:

- the purpose of government

- which areas the government may involve itself in

- the fundamental moral principle undergirding the legal code of that government



Phred


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Phred]
    #17373567 -

I'm not doing the pilpul, but I'll answer your questions

- the purpose of government

Is to organise the people it represents into an effective war machine, because a failure to do so will see that people destroyed or enslaved by another people's war machine (see: all of human history).

- which areas the government may involve itself in

In whatever areas the people it represents say it can involve itself in. As long as people have the right to voluntary free association, they can form a government that can involve itself in whatever the people want it to be involved in. If the people change their minds they can vote for a different ideology.

if you live in a free democracy there is no simple answer to this question, unless you want to make the claim that libertarianism is about restricting the freedom of the people to vote for a government that represents their wishes.

- the fundamental moral principle undergirding the legal code of that government

This is a mystery to me. I don't believe such a thing as morality exists, at least not as a meaningful concept. There are actions and consequences, everything else is mere theory. What is your answer to this question?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17373801 -

So - as I and the other Libertarian-leaning members participating in this thread had long ago noted - you have no idea at all about what Libertarianism is, what principles Libertarians hold, what a Libertarian government may and may not involve itself in. I had other questions ready as a followup, but what would be the point? You are so far off the mark on the fundamental tenets there is no point delving into the corollaries.

Why on earth you always considered yourself a Libertarian is a mystery for the ages.



Phred


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Phred]
    #17373892 -

Phred said:
So - as I and the other Libertarian-leaning members participating in this thread had long ago noted - you have no idea at all about what Libertarianism is, what principles Libertarians hold, what a Libertarian government may and may not involve itself in. I had other questions ready as a followup, but what would be the point? You are so far off the mark on the fundamental tenets there is no point delving into the corollaries.

Why on earth you always considered yourself a Libertarian is a mystery for the ages.

Phred


Nah - I am a believer in European libertarianism, not the American rubbish that has long since been co-opted by capitalist whores.

You have offered no information about where my knowledge is lacking, or where my research has been insufficient. One thing my research keeps turning up is that there is no broad agreement as to what libertarianism is, merely individual fanatics claiming that their interpretation of it is the one truth and everyone else is "so far off the mark on the fundamental tenets there is no point delving into the corollaries."

If libertarianism is anti-coercion, then I am as libertarian as it gets. Perhaps you could answer the questions you put to me in your recent post, instead of simply sneering at me from on high, and declaring that my understanding is inferior to yours.

I'm here to learn, but I won't be bullshitted.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17374343 -

viktor said:
Phred said:
So - as I and the other Libertarian-leaning members participating in this thread had long ago noted - you have no idea at all about what Libertarianism is, what principles Libertarians hold, what a Libertarian government may and may not involve itself in. I had other questions ready as a followup, but what would be the point? You are so far off the mark on the fundamental tenets there is no point delving into the corollaries.

Why on earth you always considered yourself a Libertarian is a mystery for the ages.

Phred


Nah - I am a believer in European libertarianism, not the American rubbish that has long since been co-opted by capitalist whores.







I strongly suspect you are trolling but if you are not you seriously need to calm down and look at what you are posting. Capitalist whores seriously the point of a libertarian society is the embrace of free market principles with limited government involvement in the economic or social affairs of its citizens.


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17374499 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
I strongly suspect you are trolling but if you are not you seriously need to calm down and look at what you are posting. Capitalist whores seriously the point of a libertarian society is the embrace of free market principles with limited government involvement in the economic or social affairs of its citizens.


What's your opinion in the minimum wage and availability of food stamps?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17374789 -

viktor said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
I strongly suspect you are trolling but if you are not you seriously need to calm down and look at what you are posting. Capitalist whores seriously the point of a libertarian society is the embrace of free market principles with limited government involvement in the economic or social affairs of its citizens.


What's your opinion in the minimum wage and availability of food stamps?


Minimum wage holds limits the amount of employees a business can hire so it directly correlates to unemployment as well as inflation. I would have no problem if food stamps could only purchase healthy food fresh fruit vegetables and meat no processed food at all.


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17374890 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
Minimum wage holds limits the amount of employees a business can hire so it directly correlates to unemployment as well as inflation.


You'd assume, therefore, that a country with a low minimum wage (such as the USA) would have lower unemployment than a country with a higher minimum wage (such as Australia)?

And that a socialist country such as Norway ought to have a very high unemployment rate?

Do you think these things are true?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17374926 -

viktor said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Minimum wage holds limits the amount of employees a business can hire so it directly correlates to unemployment as well as inflation.


You'd assume, therefore, that a country with a low minimum wage (such as the USA) would have lower unemployment than a country with a higher minimum wage (such as Australia)?

And that a socialist country such as Norway ought to have a very high unemployment rate?

Do you think these things are true?


I do think they are true the US has a lower unemployment rate than those other nations since we provide incentives to work instead of incentives to leech off of government benefits.


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17375289 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
I do think they are true the US has a lower unemployment rate than those other nations since we provide incentives to work instead of incentives to leech off of government benefits.


Average unemployment rates, 2010:

USA: 9.6%
Australia (minimum wage is twice as high): 5.2%
Norway (socialist hellhole): 3.6%

Source: World Bank data

Bit weird, that, isn't it?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17375548 -

viktor said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
I do think they are true the US has a lower unemployment rate than those other nations since we provide incentives to work instead of incentives to leech off of government benefits.


Average unemployment rates, 2010:

USA: 9.6%
Australia (minimum wage is twice as high): 5.2%
Norway (socialist hellhole): 3.6%

Source: World Bank data

Bit weird, that, isn't it?


I'm sure that doesn't take into account population differences as well I am skeptical about the validity of the data from those two nations. It matters not anyways the US still has a much higher gdp than any of those countries and we could also reduce any of the pathetic european countries to rubble if we ever chose to do so. :smile:


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17375616 -

viktor said:
Average unemployment rates, 2010:

USA: 9.6%
Australia (minimum wage is twice as high): 5.2%
Norway (socialist hellhole): 3.6%

Source: World Bank data

Bit weird, that, isn't it?


Are you telling me that the US minimum wage system is incapable of fulfilling the basic needs of the working class?


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Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: ClaudeRains]
    #17375621 -

The US minimum wage actually hurts the working class :eek:


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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