Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Magic Mushrooms Zamnesia
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |  [ show all ]
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17365602 -

viktor said:
]private enterprise, who are not accountable to the general populace in any way.



dude you need to read some books and get smarter.

private enterprise is totally accountable to the general populace,  do you think they just magically pull money out of their ass?  where do you think private enterprise gets its money and how do you think it does it?

the answer is that consumers give it to them voluntarily because the consumer (general populace)
is pleased with the product said private enterprise provides.

if private enterprise is not accountable to the demand of the general populace, they go out of business.

you could easily argue that private enterprise is even more accountable to the general populace than the government is.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor] * 1
    #17365639 -

viktor said:
What was the worst systematic act of coercion in the history of the USA? Slavery.

Who carried it out? Private enterprise, which DID NOT need the government to use violence in order to take slaves and sell them.

Who put a stop to it? The g..., g..., gov..., go on - you say it.



You have some circular logic there.  If something happened, then it happened because the g..., g..., gov..., government allowed it.  People can drink alcohol because the government allows them to.  People can work on Sunday because the government allows them to.

Also, although your beliefs follow the popular thread taught in school, the real issue that the government put a stop to was the breaking of the union.  Slavery happened to be a convenient sell for the general public.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Seuss]
    #17365649 -

Seuss said:
You have some circular logic there.  If something happened, then it happened because the g..., g..., gov..., government allowed it.  People can drink alcohol because the government allows them to.  People can work on Sunday because the government allows them to.



Nah, the government doesn't allow anything. All it can do is impose consequences, or threaten consequences, for carrying out the action.

I could sail to Africa now, take some slaves and bring them to the USA. The government doesn't allow this, but I am still perfectly free to do it. What it can and will do, is fuck me over when it finds out that I am keeping slaves.

A government too small to dissuade people from fucking each other over is too small, in my opinion.

Although I have considerable sympathy for the libertarian position - and I can't emphasise that enough - stripping the government down to bare essentials would create opportunities for people to exploit each other without consequence.

For libertarianism to work, human nature would have to be different. Libertarianism is, therefore, just another communism - a lovely idea that intelligent people have long since discarded as impractical.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor] * 1
    #17365824 -

viktor said:
Although I have considerable sympathy for the libertarian position - and I can't emphasise that enough - stripping the government down to bare essentials would create opportunities for people to exploit each other without consequence.


Not if you consider that libertarians almost universally believe that stopping people from fucking eachother over using force or deceit is one of the essentials of government.  It doesn't take much to provide that level of "service" if the government doesn't simultaneously have their hand in 40,000 other unrelated activities.

Since you brought up American libertarians specifically, I will also add that the energy of most libertarians is focused against the aggregation of federal government power.  The reason they might seem like total anarchists to you is that you only see this part of their beliefs.  Even if the only thing the federal government did was print money and guard the borders, the states could still take care of the majority of criminal and civil prosecution--just like they do now.  This is how our country was set up.  It was a good system, but that has been slowly eroded over time to the point where the federal government is involved in all kinds of shit it shouldn't be.  Once we ever get the federal government down to a manageable size, you might hear libertarians start talking about what their state governments should and shouldn't be doing, but it hardly gets to that point nowadays.

Quote:
For libertarianism to work, human nature would have to be different. Libertarianism is, therefore, just another communism - a lovely idea that intelligent people have long since discarded as impractical.


Here is the part where you define intelligence by whether someone believes in libertarianism or not.  More circles...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #17365904 -

Thank god I don't have meetings with investors every day. I know a guy that's all he does is try and work with getting financing capital for companies, as a financial broker. I'd hate to have a meeting with investors, in a nice restaurant with a t.v., and look up and see new info about the indexing dropping a quarter point every hour, and look at this crap

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/business/obamas-tax-plan-would-spare-many-affluent-families.html

in the beginning of the meeting everyone would be smiling, by the end of the meeting they'd have walked out. I'm the only one out raged by all the hard working families that spend their life trying to get a measly 40k to start a business, no one else seems to get pissed at Obama, or realise what a monster he is. A job is more important then free health care, with a job you can AFFORD health care. WTF is wrong with this country?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: ChuangTzu] * 1
    #17368273 -

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
For libertarianism to work, human nature would have to be different. Libertarianism is, therefore, just another communism - a lovely idea that intelligent people have long since discarded as impractical.


Here is the part where you define intelligence by whether someone believes in libertarianism or not.  More circles...


I'm having trouble following your logic here. Libertarians are, to me, a subset of mentally defective people. The set of mentally defective people includes others - most religious, flat earthers, communists, nazis etc.

Someone can not believe in libertarianism and still be stupid.

Libertarianism appears to me more like a cult than a movement. It's based on denial of reality. I'd respect it more if libertarians could answer two questions:

1) Out of the hundred or so democratic countries in the world, why have none of them recently tried libertarianism?

2) Somalia has very little government. Is this a libertarian paradise or not?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17369070 -

What does Somalia have in the way of natural resources? Stating a country's current government structure when it's coupled with low resources, and it's history of conflicts in no way proves that Libertarian ideas are invalid. Somalia also doesn't have much ability to enforce any laws, which is not remotely close to a Libertarian ideal, so I'm not quite sure what your perspective of Libertarians is...

I'm also not quite sure what democratic countries you are talking about, we have lots of elected republics, but democracy on a more legitimate scale hasn't never been tried, because it would have been too cumbersome. Given these days though, that most people have the ability to do some light reading and voting on a smart phone each morning, there's not much standing in the way of a truer democracy, which is closer to a Libertarian paradise than what's currently going on here. Libertarian does not mean no government.

Edited by Xingu (12/10/12 07:13 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17369109 -

viktor said:
I'm having trouble following your logic here. Libertarians are, to me, a subset of mentally defective people.


That's a terrible presumption to make.


Libertarianism arose out of the age of enlightenment and the intellectual revolution that defined it.

I keep repeating this, does anyone actually ever read what i say?!

instead of making false presumptions you really should try to learn something about libertarianism.  Its obvious you have just made a bunch of presumptions and never bothered to actually learn about what you;re talking about.


Quote:
Libertarianism appears to me more like a cult than a movement. It's based on denial of reality. I'd respect it more if libertarians could answer two questions:


Appearances can be deceiving,  again, you should try some actual legitimate study on this topic before you make these brash presumptions.

Quote:
1) Out of the hundred or so democratic countries in the world, why have none of them recently tried libertarianism?


Uhhh.... HELLO!!!!  THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA??? 

The idea of "life, liberty, and persuit of happiness" comes from the writings of John Locke, an 18th century libertarian.

The united stated constitution, bill of rights, and declaration of independence are all based on libertarianism.

Libertarians are the true Americans and true patriots. 

Quote:
2) Somalia has very little government. Is this a libertarian paradise or not?


No, again, learn what libertarianism is before you open your mouth.

libertarianism is NOT anarchism.

Again, libertarians believe the legitimate function of government is to protect it's citizens from force and fraud.

Why is it that most people who "cant stand libertarians" seem to know absolutely nothing about what they are talking about?  actually it makes a lot of sense on second thought.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Xingu]
    #17369136 -

Xingu said:
Given these days though, that most people have the ability to do some light reading and voting on a smart phone each morning, there's not much standing in the way of a truer democracy, which is closer to a Libertarian paradise than what's currently going on here. Libertarian does not mean no government.


See, this is what's crazy about this whole discussion. I know that libertarian doesn't mean no government, I also know that it doesn't even necessarily mean less government. If people are being coerced by non-governmental actors, libertarian might mean more government.

My objection is that the term libertarian has been hijacked by ultra-conservative psychopaths such as Ron Paul and his bible thumping nuthuggers.

This is identical to how Christianity has been hijacked by the exact sort of people who Jesus warned us about, and who are as un-Christlike as anyone can be.

What to do about this? I don't know. I'm here for answers.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17369164 -

Why give Ron Paul any attention then? I agree with you on him being a bit nutty.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17369212 -

viktor said:
My objection is that the term libertarian has been hijacked by ultra-conservative psychopaths such as Ron Paul and his bible thumping nuthuggers.


Aside from naming Ron Paul i can completely agree with you here!

The GOP has actually intentionally infiltrated and hijacked the libertarian movement.

Some of you might remember the tea party when it first started out, then you remember when the republican nutjobs later all infiltrated it and messed it all up.

Quote:
This is identical to how Christianity has been hijacked by the exact sort of people who Jesus warned us about, and who are as un-Christlike as anyone can be.

What to do about this? I don't know. I'm here for answers.


Totally agree!

What needs to be done is more education and public relations type stuff.

In my opinion, mainstream libertarians get so caught up in defending themselves from shots coming from all over that they often forget to properly explain what libertarianism is really all about.

Public libertarians need to really take people to school more on the fundamentals of libertarianism instead of getting caught up in all the rhetoric.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Shins]
    #17369314 -

Okay, it appears to me that we've established some broad grounds for agreement. I attacked the form of libertarianism that has been presented to me, you claimed that this isn't real libertarianism, and I agree with that.

I gave the example of Ron Paul because that's usually what people mean when they support libertarianism, in much the same way that national socialism has become equated with Hitlerism.

You see, I have always considered myself a libertarian, and was stunned when I investigated this further and discovered that all the people I met here who identified with this title were the narcissistic mental defectives I have railed against on this thread.

Perhaps libertarianism is best thought of as a cultural/philosophical movement and not a political one.

But in a political discussion thread, the next question is this: what political action should a true libertarian take? Who should they vote for, support, campaign for, and on what issues?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Shins]
    #17371074 -

Shins said:
Quote:
1) Out of the hundred or so democratic countries in the world, why have none of them recently tried libertarianism?


Uhhh.... HELLO!!!!  THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA??? 

The idea of "life, liberty, and persuit of happiness" comes from the writings of John Locke, an 18th century libertarian.

The united stated constitution, bill of rights, and declaration of independence are all based on libertarianism.

Libertarians are the true Americans and true patriots. 




Just so I am sure that I have got this right, and that no-one's trying to trick me, are you claiming that the slaveowners who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the people who committed genocide against the natives of America, taking their land without compensation, were all libertarians, or at least represented a libertarian society?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17371096 -

Cause and Effect.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17371182 -

viktor said:
Just so I am sure that I have got this right, and that no-one's trying to trick me, are you claiming that the slaveowners who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the people who committed genocide against the natives of America, taking their land without compensation, were all libertarians, or at least represented a libertarian society?


they do not reprisent a modern version of libertarianism, which sees all races and sexes as equally protected under the law.

not all of them were libertarians or slave owners...

whats your point anyways? so it obviously wasn't perfect.

you seem to be fixated on the issue of slavery as if it defines libertarianism in some way?

you do realize that libertarians today believe that human rights should apply to all races equally right?

Why cant we take a good thing and make it better?

why is it like  "well heres one inconsistent thing that happened THEREFORE its totally bunk?"


The attitude with racism and slavery was not exclusively endemic to libertarianism, it was shared by all kinds of people, some of them just happened to be "libertarian." 

If we Include the fact that all races are humans under the law, whats the problem?

the problem before was that other races were not considered human under the law :eek:

now that they are and are protected under the law, whats the problem?


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Shins]
    #17371321 -

Shins said:
viktor said:
Just so I am sure that I have got this right, and that no-one's trying to trick me, are you claiming that the slaveowners who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the people who committed genocide against the natives of America, taking their land without compensation, were all libertarians, or at least represented a libertarian society?


they do not reprisent a modern version of libertarianism, which sees all races and sexes as equally protected under the law.

not all of them were libertarians or slave owners...

whats your point anyways? so it obviously wasn't perfect.

you seem to be fixated on the issue of slavery as if it defines libertarianism in some way?

you do realize that libertarians today believe that human rights should apply to all races equally right?

Why cant we take a good thing and make it better?

why is it like  "well heres one inconsistent thing that happened THEREFORE its totally bunk?"


The attitude with racism and slavery was not exclusively endemic to libertarianism, it was shared by all kinds of people, some of them just happened to be "libertarian." 

If we Include the fact that all races are humans under the law, whats the problem?

the problem before was that other races were not considered human under the law :eek:

now that they are and are protected under the law, whats the problem?


What a load of complete rubbish.

It was known that the "other races" were human, the slave owners were raping them! Or are you now claiming that your beloved Founding Fathers were into bestiality?

I have an issue with slavery (and genocide) because these horrors were carried out under a system of government that libertarians apparently want to return to.

Of course, if you cut away the welfare state you can make debt and wage slaves out of people, which is the real goal of "libertarian" philosophy. You can deny that if you want.

Slavery isn't inconsistent with "libertarianism", it's the whole point of it!


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17371460 -

viktor said:
What a load of complete rubbish.

It was known that the "other races" were human, the slave owners were raping them! Or are you now claiming that your beloved Founding Fathers were into bestiality?

I have an issue with slavery (and genocide) because these horrors were carried out under a system of government that libertarians apparently want to return to.


dude, you need to separate the issue of slavery from libertarian philosophy, they are not connected!

modern libertarians do not want to go back to slavery, stop with that bullshit, it has no basis in reality.

Quote:
[Of course, if you cut away the welfare state you can make debt and wage slaves out of people, which is the real goal of "libertarian" philosophy. You can deny that if you want.

Slavery isn't inconsistent with "libertarianism", it's the whole point of it!


LEARN ABOUT WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT  you have no idea!

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberty

Quote:
lib·er·ty noun \ˈli-bər-tē\
plural lib·er·ties

Definition of LIBERTY

1
: the quality or state of being free:
a : the power to do as one pleases
b : freedom from physical restraint
c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control
d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges
e : the power of choice



Libertarianism arose out of the need to escape out of the clutches of an oppressive state or monarchy that made slaves out of its citizens.

the real goal of libertarianism is to give people free choice to make voluntary decisions without being forced or coerced.

you are soooo delusional saying that libertarianism's goal is slavery.... it is the complete opposite.

again please PLEASE read some books about the topic, you are making yourself look really stupid.

this is a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Quote:
Libertarianism is the group of political philosophies which advocate minimizing coercion and emphasize freedom, liberty, and voluntary association.



^  I have no idea how that equates to slavery to you other than the fact that you might be insane.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Shins] * 1
    #17371679 -

It's all just smoke and mirrors, though, isn't it.

No different to a child molesting priest in the dock and saying "I couldn't have done that, I'm a Christian and Christianity is about niceness and morals and blah de blah."

I really don't care what libertarians claim to be about, or what philosophy they claim that they base their beliefs on.

I deal with reality.

In my reality, the holy document of libertarianism was written by slave owners, and the Golden Age of libertarianism involved a genocidal war of conquest. A few hundred years on, libertarians, having utterly crushed and exterminated the original inhabitants of the USA, are now espousing a political philosophy that will obviously lead to people starving in the street, mass riots etc.

Libertarianism is a smallpox blanket for the working classes. I'm not falling for it, and I'm embarrassed that you are. You can quote dictionary definitions at me all day, but it doesn't matter.

A black man makes my point. Fortunately, thanks to government interference, he isn't a slave anymore.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: viktor]
    #17371893 -

I see your point you're right.

beware of wolves in sheep's clothing...

I think that many of the Ideas that came out are worth keeping, but they just need updating...

There should be a middle ground where all good ideas get merit.

People shouldn't be starving in the streets, but people should also not scam the government in whatever way and cheat their fellow man.

Protecting life should be a function of government, there needs to be a certain amount of welfare, but people also need jobs and incentives to work, they need a good economy too.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: I cant stand Libertarians.... [Re: Shins]
    #17372116 -

Shins said:
I see your point you're right.

beware of wolves in sheep's clothing...

I think that many of the Ideas that came out are worth keeping, but they just need updating...

There should be a middle ground where all good ideas get merit.

People shouldn't be starving in the streets, but people should also not scam the government in whatever way and cheat their fellow man.

Protecting life should be a function of government, there needs to be a certain amount of welfare, but people also need jobs and incentives to work, they need a good economy too.


As is said here there needs to be a middle ground. That's why I believe in Progressive Libertarianism. I think our approach towards federal government should be much more libertarian but that doesn't mean local and state governments can't be more progressive. This seems to logically be the best choice since if 50 states were trying 50 different experiments on the state and local level it might be easier to see what works and what doesn't instead of putting all our eggs in one basket.

It does amaze me that anyone can call a libertarian racist however. The central belief of libertarianism is that the government treats everyone equally. I understand that may allow racists who own businesses to discriminate, but at the same time maintain that people should have freedom of association and that includes freedom to not associate. In the past problems with racism and many other issues stemmed from government passing laws that allowed such things. In the end it all comes down to the consumer and I don't think the consumers of today's society would allow a blatantly racist company to exist, but still think they should have the freedom to do so. I guess to some that makes me seem like a racist but to me that seems like true equality.

Saying slavery in the U.S. happened under a libertarian society certainly shows a misunderstanding for a true libertarian government.

I'm also confused how Ron Paul is such a bad figure for libertarianism. As far as I can tell his voting record is quite libertarian and very admirable. It does bother me that many so called libertarians hold on so strongly to Ron Paul, and don't look beyond what he has done to other libertarian figures, but I have trouble finding fault in what Ron Paul has worked towards.

To Viktors question about why no government has tried it. My response to that is first of all there are countless examples of corruption in every government that wouldn't exist if companies were not able to corrupt government for there benefit. Also on top of that I certainly am not advocating no government but rather a large shift in the libertarian direction of politics. Politicians like Ron Paul should be understood for doing just that. They do not argue for no government but rather for less government on the federal level, being in support of eliminating powers given to the federal government should not be understood as believing the local and state governments shouldn't have those options. As I said above doing things more locally allow us to run more political experiments at once and therefore increase progress in my eye so what's wrong with that?

Edited by Mycjunky (12/11/12 06:07 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* libertarianism
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )		 domite 12,900 131 09/23/03 05:26 PM
by Autonomous
* Positive & Negative Liberties in Three Dimensions lonestar2004 1,187 5 06/20/05 11:32 PM
by Phred
* Questions about libertarians DigitalDuality 1,834 13 09/18/04 07:44 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Libertarians & Corporations Autonomous 787 6 05/11/05 12:38 PM
by Autonomous
* Minimum Wage Revisited
( 1 2 all )		 Evolving 4,502 33 04/15/04 02:49 PM
by Tao
* foundation of libertarianism followed to it's logical conclusion = anarchy
( 1 2 3 all )		 Anonymous 5,007 45 10/12/04 04:27 PM
by Anonymous
* For libertarians: A message of hope Silversoul 1,065 2 07/07/05 02:02 PM
by Redstorm
* A couple of questions on the minimum wage
( 1 2 all )		 Evolving 3,667 29 10/21/03 05:40 PM
by Evolving

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
9,466 topic views. 0 members, 8 guests and 22 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.