Icelander said:

The reason imo that many people choose to believe in unproven things like divine goodness  as a way to create meaning is due to FEAR of meaninglessness, fear of impermanence and fear of death. It may work but it must be admitted, again imo, that it is the cowards way of preserving their life and their sanity. Not all of us can manage to do that.

So I'll suggest these books to you by Ernest Becker. Denial of Death-The Birth and Death of Meaning- Escape from Evil.

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Death anxiety isn't provable. There might always be some other explanation for why people think the way they do. So ... circular reasoning much?

Icelander said:

trusting in the divine goodness, even as to the deaths of little children,

IMO more blah blah blah escapism but to each his own. And I appreciate there may be more to actually reading the book in it's entirety but I think that I'd get the same hit as I did with his other book.

As to life having meaning that is totally subjective and imo anyone within any belief system can give meaning to their life and do unless they choose suicide which is hardly a cowards way out in most instances. 

The reason imo that many people choose to believe in unproven things like divine goodness  as a way to create meaning is due to FEAR of meaninglessness, fear of impermanence and fear of death. It may work but it must be admitted, again imo, that it is the cowards way of preserving their life and their sanity. Not all of us can manage to do that.

So I'll suggest these books to you by Ernest Becker. Denial of Death-The Birth and Death of Meaning- Escape from Evil.

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thefloodbehind said:

Icelander said:

The reason imo that many people choose to believe in unproven things like divine goodness  as a way to create meaning is due to FEAR of meaninglessness, fear of impermanence and fear of death. It may work but it must be admitted, again imo, that it is the cowards way of preserving their life and their sanity. Not all of us can manage to do that.

So I'll suggest these books to you by Ernest Becker. Denial of Death-The Birth and Death of Meaning- Escape from Evil.

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Death anxiety isn't provable. There might always be some other explanation for why people think the way they do. So ... circular reasoning much?

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viktor said:

Icelander said:

trusting in the divine goodness, even as to the deaths of little children,

IMO more blah blah blah escapism but to each his own. And I appreciate there may be more to actually reading the book in it's entirety but I think that I'd get the same hit as I did with his other book.

As to life having meaning that is totally subjective and imo anyone within any belief system can give meaning to their life and do unless they choose suicide which is hardly a cowards way out in most instances. 

The reason imo that many people choose to believe in unproven things like divine goodness  as a way to create meaning is due to FEAR of meaninglessness, fear of impermanence and fear of death. It may work but it must be admitted, again imo, that it is the cowards way of preserving their life and their sanity. Not all of us can manage to do that.

So I'll suggest these books to you by Ernest Becker. Denial of Death-The Birth and Death of Meaning- Escape from Evil.

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I used to think that belief in the divine goodness was cowardice, because I used to read a lot of Nietzsche. Now I believe it's pragmatism. You don't win any prizes for seeing reality in the coldest possible light, even if this is accurate; there is no divine mother who is going to pat you on the head and say "My brave little man."

Camus risked his life to write for a newspaper that was part of the French Resistance; he wrote an accurate portrayal of the situation of the Algerians under French colonialism, despite the unpopularity of this viewpoint; he broke with Sartre and his other friends and colleagues when he faced up to the failures of communism. This is not a man whose philosophy can lightly be dismissed as one of cowardice.

Whether there is any divine goodness will never be proven (and Camus wasn't big on divine goodness, that was just a quote from the mouth of one character in one novel). I don't believe that belief in it is cowardice; in fact I think it demands bravery to support a philosophy like this because of the risk of disappointment and despair.

You seem to be plugging The Denial of Death pretty hard so I'll read it if I can get hold of a copy.

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Icelander said:

I appreciate your POV.  I think bravery and cowardice can be found in any camp or philosophy and so depends on  the individual. In the case of Camus and all of use is we are often brave at times and bail at others. The reasons cannot be understood sometimes even by the individual in question.  IMO most death anxiety operates on an unconscious or below conscious level and so can be an influence in spite of any claims made otherwise. This is debatable of course. I'm fairly convinced after watching myself and others for almost 60 years.  I think you would find the books most edifying.

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iThink said:

Nietzsche was a coked up genius and all of you who dislike him are death anxiety riddled, slave morality faggots .

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Icelander said:

What's your point?

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thefloodbehind said:

iThink said:

Nietzsche was a coked up genius and all of you who dislike him are death anxiety riddled, slave morality faggots .

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Hooray for sweeping generalizations. Nietzsche definitely had some interesting ideas ... but they aren't really reasonable. They're just ideas. Cool ideas, but easily dismissed because they have very little rational basis.

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iThink said:

Icelander said:

What's your point?

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I thought it was pretty obvious.

thefloodbehind said:

iThink said:

Nietzsche was a coked up genius and all of you who dislike him are death anxiety riddled, slave morality faggots .

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Hooray for sweeping generalizations. Nietzsche definitely had some interesting ideas ... but they aren't really reasonable. They're just ideas. Cool ideas, but easily dismissed because they have very little rational basis.

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Weren't you the one bitching about someone not taking Hume seriously? And which idea of Nietzsche's has "little rational basis"?

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Quote:

Nietzsche ... cool books, but his arguments are fueled by hatred and egotism, not reason.

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So what? It's nothing to be taken literally. He did write "there are no truths, only interpretations". His truths were recognized as just that.

Yeah, he's my favorite

millzy said:

i'm not some nietzche scholar, but i would tend to disagree that his arguments are fueled by a thirst for power and violence. that indicates a gross misapprehension of what he's saying. this is the same type of stuff that comes with plato's territory about him being taken literally, when in the text he clearly alludes to his ideas being allegorical.

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viktor said:

I think Nietzsche didnt worship violence so much as accept that it was part of the human condition, and therefore shouldn't be denied.

Eternal recurrence must stand up there as one of his less well-supported ideas, although the more I do psychedelics the more I wonder if he wasn't onto something with it.

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thefloodbehind said:

curiously, eternal recurrence is the idea of his i like the most.

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thefloodbehind said:

millzy said:

i'm not some nietzche scholar, but i would tend to disagree that his arguments are fueled by a thirst for power and violence. that indicates a gross misapprehension of what he's saying. this is the same type of stuff that comes with plato's territory about him being taken literally, when in the text he clearly alludes to his ideas being allegorical.

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Right, meaning they're just ideas that are not to be taken philosophically seriously. Nietzsche's struggle is a classic battle with the lower-self, a battle that he lost. There is to much to be gained educationally from reading Nietzsche, but it is our duty not to reside in his philosophy. It is true that violence is a part of our animal nature, but we are capable of transcending that.

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