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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: DieCommie]
    #15827836 -

It's predatory but it isn't hunting.  It's also a crappy analogy, unless you consider the borrowers to be the coyote and the lenders the rabbit.  After all, the borrowers receive their part of the deal first and the lender relies on them for future acts which may or may not occur.  But one thing certainly already occurred.  The borrower got the money.


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: DieCommie]
    #15827839 -

DieCommie said:
If a rabbit jumps into a coyote's mouth, is that predatory hunting?


We're humans, we can be ethical if we chose to do so. Why do we have to operate like everyone in existence is trying to fuck us?


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #15827843 -

love2shpongleIRL said:
We're humans, we can be ethical if we chose to do so. Why do we have to operate like everyone in existence is trying to fuck us?


:thumbup:


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:smoking:

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #15827860 -

love2shpongleIRL said:
I can't think of specific cases off of the top of my head other than aspects that caused our current economic crisis. I would say that just in my experience with pursuing loans, the lending/credit system is designed to take advantage of stupid people. That's the predatory aspect I speak of.


The system is most certainly not designed to take advantage of stupid people.  The system gets fucked by stupid people.  EVERYBODY gets fucked by stupid people, they don't just fuck themselves up.  And that's why there are lawyers that stupid people can hire to review the multi-hundred thousand dollar contracts they are entering into of their own free will and which provides them with immediate benefits against future promises.  Promises.  From idiots.  Tell me who is likely to get fucked most in that transaction?  Hint:  It isn't the idiots.  Which is too fucking bad because the best way to reduce idiocy is to hold idiots accountable for the consequences of being stupid.  Not telling them, "oh you poor stupid thing let me take some smart person's money and help you."  Fuck that.  That's the surest way to get more idiots.  See the post I linked to above.


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15827887 -

It seems like there is ample stupidity on all parts.

A bank offers Joe Schmo a loan that they know he will have great difficulty paying back.

So who is the idiot?  The bank lending money it knows it'll never see, or the idiot too stupid to realize he's borrowing more than he can afford?


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15827894 -

Quote:
The system is most certainly not designed to take advantage of stupid people.  The system gets fucked by stupid people.  EVERYBODY gets fucked by stupid people, they don't just fuck themselves up.  And that's why there are lawyers that stupid people can hire to review the multi-hundred thousand dollar contracts they are entering into of their own free will and which provides them with immediate benefits against future promises.  Promises.  From idiots.  Tell me who is likely to get fucked most in that transaction?  Hint:  It isn't the idiots.  Which is too fucking bad because the best way to reduce idiocy is to hold idiots accountable for the consequences of being stupid.  Not telling them, "oh you poor stupid thing let me take some smart person's money and help you."  Fuck that.  That's the surest way to get more idiots.  See the post I linked to above.


Why do you view things from the lens that those with wealth can do no wrong? The situation isn't as black and white as you try to peg it. Sure, everything you brought up is valid, but it's bigger than that. Parts of every class are trying to grab as much as they can for themselves, in the end it hurts us all. This system is fucked, it was great for a while and provided a great standard of living for the most people but it is ending. We need a new map, a new way to operate because if we continue on this path we will be one scary ass species(if we are even here).


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: badchad]
    #15827925 -

badchad said:
It seems like there is ample stupidity on all parts.

A bank offers Joe Schmo a loan that they know he will have great difficulty paying back.


Fact not in evidence.
Quote:
So who is the idiot?  The bank lending money it knows it'll never see, or the idiot too stupid to realize he's borrowing more than he can afford?


In what fantasy did you come to the conclusion that the banks know this?  That deserves a :flowstone:


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15827948 -

I assume a bank has the capacity to basic math.  If a bank has ALL my basic financial information, including pay stubs, account balances, etc. They have a good idea of what I can afford.

You're right, its not fact that someone will be unable to pay back a loan.  Its common sense.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: badchad]
    #15827960 -

In my experience, during the housing insanity, people were often lying about how much they made to get loans they couldnt afford.  They would get part time jobs, get fake income stubs and do whatever they could to get the biggest loan they could.

Was the loan officer ignorant of this?  I doubt it, at least not completely.  But the loan takers did lie like mad to get those loans.

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #15827979 -

love2shpongleIRL said:
Quote:
The system is most certainly not designed to take advantage of stupid people.  The system gets fucked by stupid people.  EVERYBODY gets fucked by stupid people, they don't just fuck themselves up.  And that's why there are lawyers that stupid people can hire to review the multi-hundred thousand dollar contracts they are entering into of their own free will and which provides them with immediate benefits against future promises.  Promises.  From idiots.  Tell me who is likely to get fucked most in that transaction?  Hint:  It isn't the idiots.  Which is too fucking bad because the best way to reduce idiocy is to hold idiots accountable for the consequences of being stupid.  Not telling them, "oh you poor stupid thing let me take some smart person's money and help you."  Fuck that.  That's the surest way to get more idiots.  See the post I linked to above.


Why do you view things from the lens that those with wealth can do no wrong?


I don't but that is irrelevant.  I'm still waiting for you to explain how there can be predatory lending.  You can also try to explain just exactly how you think the banks benefited from lending to bums.
Quote:
The situation isn't as black and white as you try to peg it. Sure, everything you brought up is valid, but it's bigger than that.


Yes it is.  The entire problem was caused by the government coercing the banks into lending to shitheads and then, now here's the real idiots, buying the bad loans themselves.  But that isn't the act of wealthy bankers.  They are compelled by force of violence to do what the government decrees.
Quote:
Parts of every class are trying to grab as much as they can for themselves, in the end it hurts us all.


I disagree.  Firstly, you should stop thinking in terms of large groups and start thinking in terms of individuals.  Individuals in general are driven to improve their lot in life.  This is a good thing when you try to earn your keep and a bad thing when you have to rely on a man with a gun to take what is someone else's and transfer it to you.
Quote:
This system is fucked, it was great for a while and provided a great standard of living for the most people but it is ending. We need a new map, a new way to operate because if we continue on this path we will be one scary ass species(if we are even here).


Actually we need the old map, because the map that got us here got very sick with FDR and is just about completely dead now.  Crony capitalism and vote buying is what caused this mess.  The real corrupting influence of money in politics is vote buying.


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: DieCommie]
    #15827984 -

While you draw some interesting similarities between the two, it is anachronistic to say that the modern credit/debt system is peonage.  I mean, you have pointed out some similarities, but in what ways are the systems different?  I can think of one major difference, individuals are not committed to serve the creditor in bondage.  People are still free to work where they please in order to satisfy their debts.


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: fbi365]
    #15828000 -

What about debtor prisons(used to be illegal btw)? Is that not a form of bondage?


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

Edited by love2shpongleIRL (02/18/12 04:07 PM)

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: DieCommie]
    #15828015 -

DieCommie said:
In my experience, during the housing insanity, people were often lying about how much they made to get loans they couldnt afford.  They would get part time jobs, get fake income stubs and do whatever they could to get the biggest loan they could.

Was the loan officer ignorant of this?  I doubt it, at least not completely.  But the loan takers did lie like mad to get those loans.


I got a no ask mortgage about 6 years ago.  Do you know what group of borrowers the government doesn't make banks lend to?  Successful, self-employed people.  And rightfully so, our income can often take major swings.  But we knew what our ability to pay was, easily, and didn't go over it.  Not even with 3 kids in academia as we speak.  We'll be refinancing in the next month or so (not taking out any cash).  Further, since we didn't buy in a trendy locale our house's value increased.


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #15828023 -

love2shpongleIRL said:
What about debtor prisons(used to be illegal btw)? Is that not a form of bondage?


It's been almost 200 years since there were debtors prisons in the US.


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15828024 -

Damn, your property value increased? I just went to refinance and lost 10 grand on the value of my home, even with major renovations.


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #15828026 -

im scared


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #15828027 -

The three most important things in real estate are..............................


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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15828032 -

zappaisgod said:
The three most important things in real estate are..............................



location, location, location...


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15828044 -

True, there are no more debtor prisons in the us per say, but there are states that allow the the use of the justice system to lock those who can't pay in a cage. Yeah, location, location, location. I was a dumbass and just assumed the value of my home would increase exponentially for infinity. Lesson learned...


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Re: Peonage and modern society [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #15828048 -

Quote:
True, there are no more debtor prisons in the us per say, but there are states that allow the the use of the justice system to lock those who can't pay in a cage.


There is also laws and avenues to drop your debt almost completely, flip your debtors the bird and legally go on with your life owing nothing.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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