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OfflineMike Elium
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Cubes vs Pans...?
    #1437019 - 04/07/03 07:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

My friend requested some enlightenment from people who have actually experienced cubes vs pans.....not in cultivation, but in the experience.

She knows pans are considerably more potent by weight.

She heard pans have no nausea factor, so would like to know if that is true.....

But beyond that, if it's possible to characterize the difference in experience with some understandable truly descriptive terms (as much as possible !!!), please do...Hoping for a "McKenna-like" response on this one, from knowledgeable Shroomerites.....thanks


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your inside is out, and your outside is in.


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1440309 - 04/08/03 08:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

bump....

can anyone answer?


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your inside is out, and your outside is in.


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Anonymous

Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1440313 - 04/08/03 08:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There is no qualitive difference.

Psilocybin is psilocybin is psilocybin..


There may be less nausea, I wouldnt know about that. Would make sense considering you have to eat less material to trip.


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: ]
    #1440397 - 04/08/03 08:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Immaculate, Thanks.....I appreciate the response.....

I thought I had read somebody describing it as a "cleaner" trip with pans....but it seems like you are saying that enough quantity of cubes will give you an exact equivalent experience to pans, as long as the total psilocybin is the same.


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your inside is out, and your outside is in.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1440485 - 04/08/03 09:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Every single shroom has a different propotion of chemicals in them and area from area, flush from flush is entirely differnet that the last. Shrooms on one side of hte street can be twice as potent as shrooms groing icross the street. Only by a pound or ounce weight can you quantifiy a dose.

mj

3 to five dried grams of cubies or one to two dried grams of Cope/

And then again there woiuld be varying amounts between those doses.

Stijve's Paper on Panaeolus cyanescens is posted here in the Shroomery. He found that Copes from Hawaii were high in psilocybnine while Copres from Australia contained more psilocine than psilocybine.

The Copes can also gag ones throat at times becasue of their stringy grainlike flavor.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (04/08/03 09:22 PM)


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Offlinemesq
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1440511 - 04/08/03 09:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Not to mention the high urea content of Panaeolus... :laugh:

My favourite mushrooms are Panaeolus cyanescens... probably cos I have worked with them alot more than others... 


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1440540 - 04/08/03 09:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

MJ

Thanks....I was kind of hoping you would also reply to this, due to your wide experience. So then, recognizing that lots of factors can cause potency variations, and that pans contain more psilocybin by weight....

Am I correct that you don't feel there is generally any "qualitative" difference between cubes and pans, perhaps caused by any trace chemical that is in pans but not in cubes....so, like Immaculate said above....psilocybin is psilocybin ?


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mesq]
    #1440546 - 04/08/03 09:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Mesq

I had not heard of the high urea content.....if you are not just kidding, is this good, bad, or indifferent ?


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your inside is out, and your outside is in.


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Offlinemesq
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1441225 - 04/09/03 01:03 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There is a link that MJ posted showing the chemical differences between various strains of Panaeolus cyanescens.... yes they do have Urea just have a look...

I think different kinds of trips depends on a lot of variables.. body chemistry, set/setting/ and Mushroom chemistry + many more...

Like MJ was hinting at.. one patch of mushrooms will have a different chemical make up from on down the pasture... all very similar but still slightly different..



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1441372 - 04/09/03 01:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I found a very noticeable difference between p.mexicana sclerotica and P.Cubes. The mexicana had a far greater hangover period - fuzzy head and headaches and intefering with your sleep. My guess is there will be a noticeable difference between cubes and pans, hopefully because the pans are more potent you will be able to eat less, which may imply there'll be less of a hangover?


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1445730 - 04/10/03 06:20 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Undoudtedly the qualitive experiences yielded by panaeolus species tend to have their own unique characteristics that are determined not only by their increased contents of psilocybin psilocin, but also the presense of a variety of tryptophan related alkaloids not normally present at anywhere near these concentrations in other measured psilocybes.
So yes they are different because rthey have unique alkaloids - even serotonin has been reportedly found in panaeolus species.


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1445784 - 04/10/03 07:24 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Bluemeanie,

Thanks.... one would think that the presence of additional psychoactive alkaloids certainly must influence the qualitative nature of the experience. But, recognizing up front that mere words can never adequately describe the indescribable, and certainly cannot substitute for direct experience ....in spite of that, if there is any possible way to characterize that additional influence in mundane terms, such as "cleaner", "more colorful", "more cerebral", etc.....please do so.....am just trying to get some concept of it, or "feel" for it.


--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1445876 - 04/10/03 09:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The presense of the other tryuptamines in the shrooms have nothing to do witht he overall content of the psilocine/psilocybine of the shrooms, except baeocystine and/or possibly nor-baeocystine. The other tryptamine alkaloids are not psychoactive and do not affect the high or the quality of the high. I only bring this up because i have been fortunate to try baeocystine and also chemical psilocine and psilocybine.

Yes there are many tryptamines found in Panaeolus species which are not commoninthe Psilocybe genera.

However, Hundreds of other species of shrooms also have trace elements of tryptanmines in them also.

I could provide a worldwide partial list of plants and shrooms with serotonine and tryptophan and other compounds related to psilocine and psilocybine but they are not psychoactive even when eaten in combination with psilocine and/or psilocybine.

mj


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1447772 - 04/10/03 08:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

'The presense of the other tryuptamines in the shrooms have nothing to do witht he overall content of the psilocine/psilocybine of the shrooms, except baeocystine and/or possibly nor-baeocystine. The other tryptamine alkaloids are not psychoactive and do not affect the high or the quality of the high. I only bring this up because i have been fortunate to try baeocystine and also chemical psilocine and psilocybine.'
Sure if you could demonstrate to me how alkaloids with compositions similar to psilocybin and psilocin are somehow 'not active' with some scientific information Id very much appreciate it MJ. The statement that tryptophan convert alkaloids other than psilocybin/psilocin are not active when they, like Psilocybin have chemical structures similar to serotinon and are all representation of the same tryptophan precursors in the substrate seems a little redudant to me without some factual evidence.
Sure i can concede that many of these alkaloids are found in minute levels, but not all of them - unconverted L-tryptophan as an example can be found in some psilocybes at very high levels and qualitive bioassays of Ps.Weilli demonstrate that it has a significant affect on the intoxication.


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Edited by Zen Peddler (04/10/03 08:57 PM)


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1448208 - 04/10/03 11:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

A better question is how you believe L-Tryptophan is active. It is an amino acid and can be found in a variety of foods. Turkey is a good example of one of those. We certainly do not see people getting high off turkey. Also L-Tryptophan in high doses has been related to Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome ? EMS, a deadly flu like condition. Some of the tryptophans will not pass the blood brain barrier and are relatively useless.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1448995 - 04/11/03 09:03 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Trytophan is used to treat people who have sleeping disorders and to calm people down. IT is found in Turkey and in warm milk. When you are a child parents give you warm milk (imitation mothers warm breast milk) to help you go to sleep better at night.

Also recent studies show that most accidents at Christmans and Thanksgiving occur from people who actually fell asleep after having a turkey dinner rather than from alcohol intoxication.

It relaxes you.

mj but it does not get one high in any way.

mj


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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1449056 - 04/11/03 09:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

And again i didnt say that tryptophan itself was active. I stated that the alkaloids that mushrooms convert from tryptophan precursors are many and varied and that you would find that some of these alkaloids ranged more in structure than DMT and Psilocybin does - and Bioassay of MAOI DMT is so significantly different from psilocin bioassay that my contention is sound.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1449306 - 04/11/03 12:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The physical hig of DMT is the same physical fellings onbtained when on a strong dose of shrooms. That was just an observation I was making.

I still think that there is no DMT in the shrooms and that maybe it was a false positve. There is only one paper I believe which reported DMT in shrooms.

Of course Law enforcement always make the statement that Shrooms are similar to LSD and Peyote (mescaline).

While it is true that they are indoles, although mescaline is also a phenyletylamine, the only similarity between thte three drugs is that they work onthe same part of the brain, in the serotonine receptors.

Anyway. Good post so far and cool we hav no flaming going on.

more imput please.

mj


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1451709 - 04/12/03 04:14 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Bluemeanie, and MJ.....as you requested MJ, MORE INPUT (sorry it's a bit long, but I'm trying to explain a point):

Although it?s possible to rationalize any negative psychedelic experience, and that is the natural thing to do, to make the ?best? of it?..I?m betting that the vast majority of psychonauts would prefer the positive experience. Sure, it?s cool to say you were mentally tough enough to survive a traumatic psychedelic ordeal, and maybe in some way it can make you stronger (if it doesn?t destroy a part of you) and we can ?learn? from it?..but wouldn?t most people rather have the positive trip ? (That is, aside from someone like an axe murderer or other mental deviant, who might actually enjoy visiting hell for a few hours, but I personally can?t relate to that). In Brave New World, Aldous Huxley fictionalized a perfect psychedelic with no negative effects, the ?soma? (and even that wasn?t totally perfect, since it carried a risk of addiction because people loved it so much). If we can agree on the assumption that a universal goal (except for truly unbalanced people who could WANT a bad trip) would be to experience the psychedelic that would always yield good trips (which of course are still allowed to be DELIGHTFULLY bizarre, because bizarre is good), then the task would be to identify that substance. Having had previous bioassay experience with Cubes, ?cid, and Mescaline, but not with Pans, my original question was to request experienced Shroomerite feedback on the experience that Pans deliver, having heard positive things about them.

When the posts turned toward the chemistry, I do find that interesting and very possibly revealing. Occasional Shroomery posts regarding the mitigation of the uncomfortable, tense, or even scary aspects of the Cube experience advise using Niacinamide, or 5-HTP to add a splash of seratonin, as smoothing or mitigating precursors to a Cube experience. Purists who prefer (or who even proselytize) the natural, the organic, the Maria Sabina type of approach, in deserved respect of the shamanistic origins of mushroom ceremonies, might ?dis? using such add-on substances as violating the pure experience. They may even consider this bordering on polydrugging (although these more natural add-ons are certainly not nearly as bad as truly synthetic and dangerous ?add-ons? like hydrocodone, etc. which IS polydrugging.) Ideally, the ?perfect soma? would stand alone, and not need any add-ons at all, would not generate any negative side effects that would influence people in that direction.

Which leads me back to the Cube/Pan debate. The additional chemistry found in Pans, even though it may not necessarily be psychotropic by absolute hard definition, and even if including L-Tryptophan which is found in a Turkey dinner and is a known relaxant, could actually favorably alter or shape the psychedelic experience, without resorting to dosing additional substances like 5-HTP to ?smooth? it. If a particular mushroom like a Pan, in contrast to other mushrooms, naturally contains such additional influential substances, one could hypothesize that a RELATIVELY FINER QUALITY TRIP might be produced by Pans?..even though psilocybin and psilocyn are still psilocybin and psilocyn, Cubes or Pans. So my initial question was really to find out if Pans were a bit closer to the ideal ?soma? than Cubes, in knowledgeable peoples? experience and opinion. Before somebody tells me to "just try it yourself and see?.?..isn?t asking such a question what these Boards are for? Besides, this chemistry thing is getting real damned interesting?.BRING IT ON !!!


--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.


Edited by Mike Elium (04/12/03 11:39 AM)


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InvisibleHermes_br
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Re: Cubes vs Pans...? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1451945 - 04/12/03 10:32 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What you said reminded me a post by AIRDOG :

"and yes the mushies are friends and they are closely related, actually you can eat a lot of pan sphinctrinus along with psilocybian mushrooms and you will be feeling something similar but different.. hehehhe The best ones are the pies that have cubes an copes in them hjehehe"
AIRDOG's click

that may be possible, probably because of the presence of tryptophan, 5-hydroxytryptophan & others in Panaeolus sphinctrinus .


Edited by Hermes_br (04/12/03 10:43 AM)


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