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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Warmonger vs. Peacenik
    #1417697 - 03/30/03 02:22 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This resembles many of my recent conversations with my pro-war friends and a lot of what I see in this forum. Taken from http://www.thehomelessguy.net:

A WARMONGER EXPLAINS WAR TO A PEACENIK
By Bill Davidson


PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?

WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of security council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate security council resolutions.

PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in violation of more security council resolutions than Iraq.

WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq could have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking gun could well be a mushroom cloud over NY.

PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had no nuclear weapons.

WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.

PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for attacking us or our allies with such weapons.

WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorists networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.


PN: But coundn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the eighties ourselves, didn't we?

WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that has an undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the early eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a power-hungry lunatic murderer.

PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic murderer?

WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is the one that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.

PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our ambassador to Iraq, April Gillespie, know about and green-light the invasion of Kuwait?

WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell its biological and chemical weapons to Al Quaida. Osama BinLaden himself released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us, proving a partnership between the two.

PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill him?

WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on the tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily be a partnership between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.

PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a secular infidel?

WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell presented a strong case against Iraq.

PN: He did?

WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Quaeda poison factory in Iraq.

PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq controlled by the Kurdish opposition?

WM: And a British intelligence report...

PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate student paper?

WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...

PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?

WM: And reports of Iraquis scuttling and hiding evidence from inspectors...

PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix?

WM: Yes, but there is plently of other hard evidence that cannot be revealed because it would compromise our security.

PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass dectruction in Iraq?

WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find evidence. You're missing the point.

PN: So what is the point?

WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because resolution 1441 threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the security council will become an irrelevant debating society.

PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the security council?

WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.

PN: And what if it does rule against us?

WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade Iraq.

PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?

WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.

PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us unless we gave them tens of billions of dollars.

WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.

PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.

WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its will by electing leaders to make decisions.

PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is important?

WM: Yes.

PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the U.S. Supreme C...-

WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they were elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is about being a patriot. That's the bottom line.

PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not patriotic?

WM: I never said that.

PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass destruction that threaten us and our allies.

PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.

WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.

PN: You know this? How?

WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are still unaccounted for.

PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?

WM: Precisely.

PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade to an unusable state over ten years.

WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.

PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist, we must invade?

WM: Exactly.

PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical, biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach the west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND threatened to turn America into a sea of fire.

WM: That's a diplomatic issue.

PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?

WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow the inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying, deceiving, and denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens of millions.

PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.

WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.

PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim sentiments against us, and decrease our security?

WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.

PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security, color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the way we live?

WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.

PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has called on Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must now face the consequences.

PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as find a peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?

WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?

WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an an obligation to listen to the Security Council?

WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security Council?

WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.

PN: In which case?

WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.

PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at all?

WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.

PN: That makes no sense.

WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France, with the all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to boycott their wine and cheese, no doubt about that.

PN: I give up!


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1417701 - 03/30/03 02:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I love it, I hope you don't mind if I copy and post it on another forum?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinedizzymystic
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Registered: 03/14/03
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1417708 - 03/30/03 02:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yes this war sucks, I'm so disaapointed in america, i think its clear as leaders of the free world we sure don't set a good example.


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Invisibleslppe
the eye

Registered: 02/25/03
Posts: 401
Loc: tripped out
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1417709 - 03/30/03 02:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Great post!! you forgot to mention how the peacenik continues his aurgument with a calm deamenor and the warmonger has to 'out yell' you to prove his point (at least that what happens when I discuss the war with my Dad)


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1417718 - 03/30/03 02:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

go right ahead, credit to thehomelessguy.net. :smile: 


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1417736 - 03/30/03 03:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

nice one


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1418046 - 03/30/03 11:32 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

beautiful. thx for that.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1418122 - 03/30/03 12:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That was a pretty good post.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: Skikid16]
    #1418180 - 03/30/03 01:22 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Amen


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineyelimS
bohem

Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: silversoul7]
    #1418362 - 03/30/03 03:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i should probably wait a little longer before posting this, but notice that none of the usual warmongers have responded.
oh, and amen to that yes, ive spread the word.


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1418383 - 03/30/03 04:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

WOW!

I like it a lot.





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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: yelimS]
    #1418388 - 03/30/03 04:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

wow, that just about sums up these forums eh

the same questions, and the same answers (more civil even)... interesting when its spread out like that

good post


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: foghorn]
    #1418415 - 03/30/03 04:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

thanks guys, i thought it was great myself which is why I posted it. i'm also interested to see what the pro-war people think of this little 'skit'. if only we could shove this in bush's face and force him to explain his actions.


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1418429 - 03/30/03 04:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

if only we could shove this in bush's face and force him to explain his actions.




Ahhh, you'd probably have to get someone to give him the gist of it.



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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: adrug]
    #1418430 - 03/30/03 04:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well anyone who is a warmonger is an idiot. War is not something to be desired, but it sometimes is necessary. How do you want us to respond to a hypothetical discussion between two fictional people both of which take an extreme and wrong stance on war?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: z@z.com]
    #1418448 - 03/30/03 04:45 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

War is not something to be desired, but it sometimes is necessary.

the only thing war is necessary for is to continue justifying further wars. war has been the answer since the beginning of human existence. but it has accomplished nothing, war breeds war, and with that, there will be no peace.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: ]
    #1418454 - 03/30/03 04:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If every country in this world were to disarm and become peaceful it is only a matter of time until someone trys to get power using violence and opression. At this point it becomes NECESSARY for people to oppose this person/group in war.

Quote:


it has accomplished nothing




War defeated Hitler.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: z@z.com]
    #1418467 - 03/30/03 05:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

And the defeat of hitler and the nazi party has led to the rise of the Bush dynasty, thanks to Prescott Bush's assocaiations with the Nazi war machine. If I'm not mistaken, after the war, he ran off with quite a bit of money thanks to the Nazis. I've really become exasperated with this whole situation, simply because it seems that NOTHING CAN BE DONE, short of mental and spiritual evolution of the entire human species.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: z@z.com]
    #1418493 - 03/30/03 05:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well anyone who is a warmonger is an idiot. War is not something to be desired, but it sometimes is necessary. How do you want us to respond to a hypothetical discussion between two fictional people both of which take an extreme and wrong stance on war?




Peacenik vs. Warmonger is the wrong title for this dialogue. It should be "Gulf War II Supporter vs. Skeptic"

First of all, one of the people in this fictional dialogue doesn't actually take a stance--he simply asks questions. The other person replies in much the same way that the Bush administration has replied to the very same questions. The answers are not even really answers--they inevitably sidestep the issue at hand and suddenly shift to another so-called "justification" for this war. When THAT justification collapses in a heap of contradictions and logical inconsistencies, they then shift to yet another so-called justification, until all justifications have run out. Then they go back to Justification #1 and start all over again, hoping that everyone has forgotten that all of their justifications have already been demolished.

The whole thing is pretty reminiscent of a Socratic dialogue, actually. Socrates doesn't actually take any positions--he merely asks questions, trying to get at the heart of the matter. Usually, his partners in these dialogues have no real, supportable reasons for believing what they do--their views are simply the products of cultural conditioning, prejudice, wish-fulfillment, and self-serving excuses.

And what, by the way, is the non-extreme and correct stance on this war?


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Warmonger vs. Peacenik [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1418514 - 03/30/03 05:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


And what, by the way, is the non-extreme and correct stance on this war?




I was refering to war in general. Being a pacifist will not always work nor will always rushing to war. That was my point.

BTW: I'm really stoned so don't expect any good resonable arguments from me for a few hours.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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