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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13293298 -

to an ant a single break may be a wall, where does wall end and non-wall begin?


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13293308 -

learningtofly said:
to an ant a single break may be a wall...

You mean brick, right?


learningtofly said:
where does wall end and non-wall begin?

The wall ends where it ends, and non-wall begins where the wall ends. :shrug2:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13293329 -

Yes, I meant brick.

The point being that no, there is no difference between a brick wall and a brick because there is no established definition of how many bricks or to what size exactly constitutes a wall.

Even if you had half of a brick, to a bacterium it would be (most likely) considered a wall.

bringing me to my other point that language is relative.

You can't have big without small, or hot without cold, or dead without alive.


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13293352 -

learningtofly said:
The point being that no, there is no difference between a brick wall and a brick because there is no established definition of how many bricks or to what size exactly constitutes a wall.

So the definition is arbitrary; that doesn't mean that there isn't a difference between a brick and a wall. 5 bricks put together could be called '5 bricks put together'; though most people wouldn't call this a wall, it still isn't just 1 brick.


learningtofly said:
Even if you had half of a brick, to a bacterium it would be (most likely) considered a wall.

What if each brick was only composed of a few molecules then?


learningtofly said:
bringing me to my other point that language is relative.

How does this fact mean that language is flawed?


learningtofly said:
You can't have big without small, or hot without cold, or dead without alive.

Sure, and that's only because each of those things are separate phenomenon.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13295154 -

Thread synopsis:
Learningtofly says "language doesn't do what it doesn't do."
Poid says "but language does do what it does do."
Repeat.

laserpig said:
Language is flawless if you expect it to function as a representative symbol system developed by bipedal apes.


There is nothing "wrong" with language.
The only problem with language is that it's language.

The word "orgasm" isn't an orgasm, and the word "pain" isn't pain.
The problem lies not in language, but in the expectations of certain people.
And the expectations of certain people, especially here in the West, is that language should or does correspond exactly to primary phenomena.
The abstraction of money-->wealth-->comfort-->happiness gets condensed into money=happiness, and people end up behaving in ways that are nonsensical or counterproductive.

Unless I've greatly misunderstood, this is the real point Learningtofly is trying to make.

(BTW don't get too used to the capitalization, I'm already getting bored with it :lol:)


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: To the west [Re: laserpig]
    #13295182 -

YAY YOU WROTE WHAT I COULDN'T

Yes i was just trying to illuminate that people expect too much of language and often don't acknowledge that even language has its limits.

Taoism says it, hell even Wittgenstein says it: Whereof one cannot speak, one must pass over in silence.


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Edited by learningtofly (10/05/10 08:51 PM)

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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13295627 -

laserpig said:
The word "orgasm" isn't an orgasm, and the word "pain" isn't pain.

So what? A 3D-model of the World Trade Center could accurately correspond to the actual thing, could it not?


laserpig said:
(BTW don't get too used to the capitalization, I'm already getting bored with it :lol:)

:crankeytom:


learningtofly said:
Yes i was just trying to illuminate that people expect too much of language and often don't acknowledge that even language has its limits.

The only limit of language that has been demonstrated in this thread is that it is never the exact phenomenon that it symbolizes--this is a pointless "point" IMO. :tongue:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: laserpig]
    #13297116 -

Quote:
And the expectations of certain people, especially here in the West, is that language should or does correspond exactly to primary phenomena.


that language has a fixed meaning that is separable from the exact context in which it occurs

that we can analyze meaning

these are also errors i think


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dripping with fantasy

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Re: To the west [Re: quinn]
    #13299346 -

I guess I can understand your basic idea. It would be great if we could simply convey thoughts instead of having to put thoughts into words, speak the words, and then hope that the other person correctly translates the words back to thoughts. I guess most people don't really think about how language is simply a tool we have invented, that will never truly do the thoughts justice.

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Re: To the west [Re: quinn]
    #13302365 -

quinn said:
[another error: the belief] that language has a fixed meaning [which] is separable from the [specific] context in which it occurs



I agree 100%. This one gets people into huge amounts of trouble.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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