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To the west
    #13289130 -

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that language is not perfect, that it is a barrier/has flaws?


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13289306 -

learningtofly said:
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that language is not perfect, that it is a barrier/has flaws?


Cause they are lost in language

Even if they aren't speaking there is words/thoughts swirling inside everyones heads
We don't directly see them, so become blinded by them
Weak spot/blind spot are the same spot


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13289507 -

learningtofly said:
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that language is not perfect, that it is a barrier/has flaws?



What?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13289573 -

learningtofly said:
Why is it so hard for some people to understand that language is not perfect, that it is a barrier/has flaws?


as a social animal, thought likes/is word speak


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13290011 -

learningtofly said:
...language...is a barrier/has flaws?

How is it a barrier, and what are some of its flaws?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13290156 -

The meaning of a word is constantly postponed by an endless chain of signifiers, so you can never describe something in and of itself, words are only meaningful in a relative context. Language creates false distinctions.

Language is a wonderful tool but it is far from perfect or without flaw.


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13290174 -

learningtofly said:
The meaning of a word is constantly postponed by an endless chain of signifiers...

How is it postponed? :undecided:


learningtofly said:
...so you can never describe something in and of itself, words are only meaningful in a relative context.

And a relative context is composed of "non-words"?


learningtofly said:
Language creates false distinctions.

It also creates correct distinctions.


learningtofly said:
Language is a wonderful tool but it is far from perfect or without flaw.

I still don't understand what you mean by language being flawed...flawed in what sense?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13290193 -

Well I could go into that stuff or just simply state that there are things that words cannot describe, and I've noticed that in the U.S., when people come across something that cannot be described by a word they get very frustrated and just dismiss the concept instead of trying to understand it non-verbally.


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13290207 -

learningtofly said:
Well I could go into that stuff or just simply state that there are things that words cannot describe...

Such as?


learningtofly said:
...and I've noticed that in the U.S., when people come across something that cannot be described by a word they get very frustrated and just dismiss the concept...

This is only evidence of their crappy ability to utilize language effectively.


learningtofly said:
...instead of trying to understand it non-verbally.

How can something be understood non-verbally?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13290216 -

Language is flawless if you expect it to function as a representative symbol system developed by bipedal apes.
Language is irrevocably broken if you expect it to capture and transmit perfectly the exact nuances of immediate reality.

The problem OP seems to be addressing is that we in the West forget that language is merely representative.
(Incidentally, by "we," I don't mean us, I mean "them," aka "the average citizen," "the sheeple," whatever.)
There are many who become confused or even distraught when a Republican shows "leftist tendencies," or when a preacher does something immoral.
This is because they believe the linguistic label of "Republican" or "preacher" is actually an adequate representation of the individual in question, when really such labels are mere shorthand, useful only in discussion of what happens on average.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: To the west [Re: laserpig]
    #13290231 -

laserpig said:
Language is irrevocably broken if you expect it to capture and transmit perfectly the exact nuances of immediate reality.

So a human can understand the exact nuances of immediate, but he does so without the use of language? :undecided:


laserpig said:
The problem OP seems to be addressing is that we in the West forget that language is merely representative.
(Incidentally, by "we," I don't mean us, I mean "them," aka "the average citizen," "the sheeple," whatever.)
There are many who become confused or even distraught when a Republican shows "leftist tendencies," or when a preacher does something immoral.
This is because they believe the linguistic label of "Republican" or "preacher" is actually an adequate representation of the individual in question, when really such labels are mere shorthand, useful only in discussion of what happens on average.

You're talking about stereotypes; a lot of people choose to stereotype instead of delving deeper into and understanding the actual precise nature of what they choose to stereotype--this is not evidence of language being broken.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13290308 -

All language is stereotypes.

Even something extremely basic like "stone" is not a clear-cut entity.
There are stone-like metals, and stone-like biological excreta, etc.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: To the west [Re: laserpig]
    #13290585 -

All language is a metaphor.

Quote:
So a human can understand the exact nuances of immediate, but he does so without the use of language?


Yes, you do it by being/experiencing. You don't do it by attempting to describe it.

Language creates distinctions, in which there are none. "You and I" is a false distinction.


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13291711 -

I think what learningtofly might mean, is that speech is analogous to a high level programming language within a computer, and thought is a low level programming language. Think C# and Binary. Any programming language higher on the scale than binary, uses a compiler to interpret commands and translate them into binary. However, not always is the exact effect is achieved so programmers may choose to modify the binary itself. This isn't possible with our minds as we can only use high level means of communication... thus far. -Stolen from Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson


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"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."  -Rumi

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Re: To the west [Re: totallymyhat]
    #13292245 -

People vary in how strictly logical their thought process is. I've met a good number of people who think you mean exactly what your words mean without looking at context. I'm not sure how this works since words are vague, but these strict logicians are often frustrated by people who use context to convey meaning and people who use context are often frustrated by the logicians.

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Re: To the west [Re: Freedom]
    #13292286 -

but yeh 'logic' is also a context :psychsplit:


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dripping with fantasy

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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13292317 -

learningtofly said:
The meaning of a word is constantly postponed by an endless chain of signifiers


u make it sound as if this were common knowledge:shrug:

Quote:
All language is a metaphor.


hmmm... how so? i might agree... but. i dunno. if i stub my toe and say "FUCK!" what is that a metaphor for?


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dripping with fantasy

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Re: To the west [Re: quinn]
    #13293208 -

laserpig said:
All language is stereotypes.

All stereotypes are 100% false/inaccurate? :undecided:


laserpig said:
Even something extremely basic like "stone" is not a clear-cut entity.

Fortunately there are more words in the English language than just 'stone'. :stoned:


laserpig said:
There are stone-like metals, and stone-like biological excreta, etc.

Yes there are. :glittershitz:


learningtofly said:
All language is a metaphor.

No, language is also similes. :smile:


learningtofly said:
Quote:
So a human can understand the exact nuances of immediate, but he does so without the use of language?


Yes, you do it by being/experiencing. You don't do it by attempting to describe it.

Experience=understanding? If this was true, then humans wouldn't need science to help explain the things they experience.


learningtofly said:
Language creates distinctions, in which there are none. "You and I" is a false distinction.

There are several distinctions; how do you figure that "You and I" is a false distinction?


quinn said:
if i stub my toe and say "FUCK!" what is that a metaphor for?

Buttsecks? :naughty:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: To the west [Re: Poid]
    #13293229 -

Quote:
Experience=understanding? If this was true, then humans wouldn't need science to help explain the things they experience.


Is understanding the same thing as explaining? No, explaining is trying to put things into words.
Quote:
There are several distinctions; how do you figure that "You and I" is a false distinction?


You and I is a false distinction because the whole idea of self is an illusion created by the ego so that your body will function, going on more you will see that on the microscopic level, these things (you and I) are one and the same.


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Re: To the west [Re: learningtofly]
    #13293290 -

learningtofly said:
Quote:
Experience=understanding? If this was true, then humans wouldn't need science to help explain the things they experience.


Is understanding the same thing as explaining? No, explaining is trying to put things into words.

un·der·stand/ˌəndərˈstand/Verb
1. Perceive the intended meaning of (words, a language, or speaker)


learningtofly said:
Quote:
There are several distinctions; how do you figure that "You and I" is a false distinction?


You and I is a false distinction because the whole idea of self is an illusion created by the ego so that your body will function, going on more you will see that on the microscopic level, these things (you and I) are one and the same.

This is like saying a brick is the same thing as a brick wall. :talkingtowall:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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