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Offlinerosewoodpete
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Registered: 05/11/02
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The LEGAL side of PF's Bust
    #1318862 - 02/19/03 09:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I know there are several threads running already on this issue but an explanation of the legal issues needs to be made.

Quote:

PF  wasn't doing anything illegal




WRONG!!!  As much as it hurts to say this, they were.  Spores are legal, correct.  But not when you sell them and provide the information to produce an illegal substance.  What PF was doing was ridiculously illegal.  I don't think they should have gotten busted but the prosecutors spent the time developing a case against them and it looks like they are going to get fucked. 

Quote:

Prosecutors say the spores themselves are not illegal. They don't contain the hallucinogenic properties of a full-grown mushroom, but the Web site contains specific instructions on how to inject the spores into a jar and grow a potent magic mushroom.





PF will likely be charged with conspiracy or some such charge.  The spores themselves weren't illegal.  But by providing the precursors and giving detailed explanations on how to produce mushrooms, they are party to the crime itself.  It's kind of like driving the car in a drive by.  I know the crimes aren't comparable but the driver in the car is just as much responsible, from the LEGAL perspective, as is the shooter.

I wold be more worried about this if i was us:

Quote:

DEA and the postal inspector’s office have been investigating Fanaticus for years. They actually planted some of these spores and grew mushrooms in a DEA lab to make sure the process works. And it did.




This means that the postal inspector's office has been tracking incoming and outgoing mail traffic from PF.  Thank god i never ordered from them.  That means that even though PF might not have kept a customer list, the postal inspector did.  So they know where PF was sending stuff and probably know who was sending PF their spores.

Quote:

The Second Psychedelic Revolution is going to steamroll over your stupid WOD. Eat our sporedust!
There's no stopping the Wave
It has already begun


 

Uhhh....Yeah and the first one did what?  made shit loads of stuff more illegal and got the War on Drugs rolling.  As I see it, things like the Patriot Act are more responsible for our troubles than this type of stuff.

Quote:

This is indeed truly a sad moment since PF was not conducting any illegal business. ANd anyone can go a publisc library and check out a copy of Paul's Mushroom Cultivator which also shows one how to grow psilocybine mushrooms.





But it doesn't come with spores in it.  Trust me, from a purely LEGAL perspective, PF broke the law and is going to get it unless the cut some sort of deal which i would hate to even try to imagine.  IT all comes down to the spores AND the INFORMATION they provided.  They were playing party to an illegal act.

I am very very sorry this happened to them.  This day and age we live in is one that i would soon like to rid myself of.  To those of you who hate to see this type of stuff happen......And I urge this....learn the law. learn the facts.  AND FUCKING VOTE!!!!!!  Not only vote but go to the candidate debates and ask them questions about this type of shit!!!  The passing of the Patriot act and the information tracking systems our government runs on us are the saddest lock of shit ever!  Our rights are being corroded and the stiff necked conservatives are willing to do whatever to maintain their power and promote their own positions.  A perfect example of it is the Bush family.  They are like the fucking Kennedy's of our age.  All of them criminals in their own right.  Righteous politicians are hard to find these days.  But education can set you free!

Sorry for that last bit of ranting and raving.  :crazy:







   

 


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: rosewoodpete]
    #1319104 - 02/19/03 11:29 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineJohnnyR
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Registered: 07/07/02
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: World Spirit]
    #1319386 - 02/19/03 01:18 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

im pretty sure they had a disclaimer discouraging anyone to NOT grow them BECAUSE they were illegal to grow..


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OfflineA0999
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: rosewoodpete]
    #1319471 - 02/19/03 01:54 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

so, does this mean if we were to trade spores in the spore exchange , then give advice about growing in the cultivation forums we could be considered to be part of the cultivation conspiracy and could be arrested/murdered on site?


--------------------
Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: rosewoodpete]
    #1319502 - 02/19/03 02:09 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I doubt they were tracking PF's mail. That means they would have had to open up every piece of mail coming in to his box. Surely PF would have noticed all the mail being opened up and caught on to it.
Also the mail going out. Its very possible they were keeping record of the outgoing name &addresses but that doesn't mean shit. The DEA can not go around knocking down doors because somebody ordered a legal product. Do you realize how many lawsuits they would open themselves up to if they pulled a stunt like that. A person has to give them just cause and a reason to get a search warrant to search there house. Just because they ordered legal spores is not reason enough.
So even if the post office did collect some names of PF's customers the DEA cant do anything with that list other then look at it.



--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com


muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust *DELETED* [Re: World Spirit]
    #1319543 - 02/19/03 02:48 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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OfflineCeeEssGee
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Registered: 09/29/02
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: poke smot!]
    #1319639 - 02/19/03 03:24 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Disclaimers can often be dismissed; they are in a majority of internet piracy cases, for sure, even though they seem to be completely stable. The reason these guys were busted, most likely, is simply because of the amount of money they were making.

Just because all of these companies are able to do this without being busted does not mean it's legal...

As for the 'bush is a criminal', the government is all against us shit, well, just, no. I could compare our country to others who are far less free, and slander the stupid freeloading ... no, I just won't. Think what you want, but let me tell you: you have it quite good.


--------------------
Why, sirrah, why may a caudled fillhorse be deemed the brother to a hiren candle in the night? Withal, because a candle may be greased, yet a fillhorse be without a fat argier!


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: CeeEssGee]
    #1319903 - 02/19/03 04:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
-- Goethe


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineDr. Slavic
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: Evolving]
    #1319984 - 02/19/03 05:18 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

People always compare America to less free countries but never more free countries. Just because there are worse governments doesn't mean ours can't improve. I have seen too many peoples houses search for bullshit reasons to believe this is the most free country. Like four of my friends houses have been searched for meth manufactor and most of them have never even done meth. Two of those four have had there houses search multiple times for the same thing they have never done. The DEA(MAGSI around here) search houses like crazy. I have seen too many people go to jail in too short of a period. So FUCK AMERICA!! yeah I said it fuck you too if you don't like it. Damn nazis!!! ARRHHH!! Sorry off subject but i had to say something


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Offlineskabbo
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: poke smot!]
    #1320070 - 02/19/03 05:38 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

poke smot, think of it more this way.
You're Walmart.
You sell someone a legal handgun
In a seperate transaction, you sell them the instructions and parts to turn it into an illegal automatic weapon that they then go use to kill someone.

Again, big difference in situation obviously, but its the legal implications that are similar.


--------------------
http://www.GetPlayed.com
Shamelessly getting amateur musicians some play


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OfflineCeeEssGee
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Registered: 09/29/02
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: Evolving]
    #1320089 - 02/19/03 05:45 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Cute. Explain to me, how am I not free?

If you can come up with enough trivial examples.. why does it matter? I'm safe. I'm living in a society which I actually believe in. I've been imbibing narcotics for at least 5 years now, and I've never been caught, though I have been honest with my parents.

EDIT: Never been caught, but if I was caught, I would be perfectly honest with police officers/juries/judges. I wouldn't try to hide behind technicalities, I would accept the consequences for my decisions; something which is not very common. (End EDIT)

Furthermore, how does that quote hold it's validity in the 21st century, when it was written in the 18th (or perhaps 19th) century?

I'm eagerly awaiting your response.


--------------------
Why, sirrah, why may a caudled fillhorse be deemed the brother to a hiren candle in the night? Withal, because a candle may be greased, yet a fillhorse be without a fat argier!


Edited by CeeEssGee (02/19/03 06:03 PM)


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: CeeEssGee]
    #1320504 - 02/19/03 08:37 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

> Explain to me, how am I not free?

You are free only because your government doesnt have the resources or technology to catch and imprison you.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: World Spirit]
    #1320699 - 02/19/03 11:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

In ten years time, the sarcasm in that passage will be lost.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #1321018 - 02/20/03 05:34 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I doubt they were tracking PF's mail. That means they would have had to open up every piece of mail coming in to his box. Surely PF would have noticed all the mail being opened up and caught on to it.
Also the mail going out. Its very possible they were keeping record of the outgoing name &addresses but that doesn't mean shit. The DEA can not go around knocking down doors because somebody ordered a legal product. Do you realize how many lawsuits they would open themselves up to if they pulled a stunt like that. A person has to give them just cause and a reason to get a search warrant to search there house. Just because they ordered legal spores is not reason enough.
So even if the post office did collect some names of PF's customers the DEA cant do anything with that list other then look at it.






The DEA can cross reference the list with the NICS database and look for peopel that have had drug arrests, this is a solid enough basis for a federal judge to issue a warrant. There has actualy been less evidence used to obtain wrrants by the DEA. Those on that list are also subject to surveilance, wire taps and the like. Because of the patriot act, it's not uncommon for the post office to log all incoming and outgoing mail...they look for paterns, someone in ohio has sent 15 letters this month to PF and last month they sent 20....dont underestimate the Federal Investigators, they have access to everything on everyone and if you believe they arent following you as well you are deluding yourself. Regardless of informationon your site or the lack thereof.....

I thought I was smart when I was 19, I quickly discovered I wasnt, I was under surveilance for 9 months before I discovered the actions and only knew about it when about 20 of treasury agents and a couple dozen local police arrested me in in a public place....during questioning I was shown photos and stuff from just a few months after I had started commiting my 'crimes'....

Prisoner#1


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: CeeEssGee]
    #1321026 - 02/20/03 05:42 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

As for the 'bush is a criminal', the government is all against us shit, well, just, no. I could compare our country to others who are far less free, and slander the stupid freeloading ... no, I just won't. Think what you want, but let me tell you: you have it quite good.




Which countries....we are all in the same boat, you may believe that we are more 'free' than another country but to think that you have aparently been buying into the propaganda box in the livingroom...currently in america, we dont have any 1st ammendment rights, if we really had, then PF wouldnt be in jail now, the Branch Davidians would still be alive and thinking David Koresh was jesus...and we wouldnt have a buttload of restrictive drug laws...we no longer have a 4th ammendment, a local police force excersized their new rights by stopping and searching vehicles as they came into that town....no charges filed were ever upheld, including those filed by a prominent attorney in that area....they have ever expanding abilities and we get dick.

Prisoner#1


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #1321070 - 02/20/03 06:06 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Someone PM's me a little worried because they ordered from PF recently. My response was.
I wouldn't worry about it. Your a small fish in a big pond in the whole scheme of this. It takes them a lot of work, proof, and judges signatures to get search warrants. If they are wrong about what they are searching for, they lose credibility with the judges and they have much harder time getting search warrents in the future. So they have to have solid proof to obtain one to begin with. Judges dont want to sign warrants that turn up nothing either. If cops do some stupid shit while searching and that victum files lawsuits on the city, the judges name is on that warrant. These guys are always thinking about getting reelected so its all about numbers to them. They need high success rates of convictions, not mistakes.

Just because you ordered spores is no proof you are doing anything illegal. You could have ordered them for a friend for all they know.

Now the other side of it, sometimes cops come knocking on your door without a warrant hoping you will be stupid enough to let them in. They will just simply ask you if they can search your place.

You let them know that since they are cops then they should know the law, they need to obtain a legal warrant through a judge.
If they ask something like "why cant we search your house, are you hiding something?" simply tell them, "your all strangers to me. I dont let strangers search come in my house and search through my personal belongings...do you?"
If they get persistant.. tell them... well lets see..there are 3 of you. How about I call 3 friends and we all go to your houses one at a time and search through your personal belongings. When were done with all your houses we can come back and do mine :smile:"

Get the picture?

It cost the DEA and local police a lot of money to set up surveilance on someone. They are alotted a certain amount of time to obtain proof that the person is actually committing a serious enough crime for them to continue there invesitagation. If they dont obtain enough proof in that time usually they are taken off the case and put on to something else. There are just to many criminals out there for them to waste much time on one individual, especially one that is just growing a few mushrooms for personal use. Exception to this rule might be small town cops that are bored and have nothing better to do then bust some small time grower :smile: 


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com


muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: CeeEssGee]
    #1321082 - 02/20/03 06:10 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cute. Explain to me, how am I not free?




When was the last time you had the chance to speak at a public rally, did you have to file for a permit....freedom of speech.

Paladin Press was 'requested' by the FBI to no longer publish and distribute a book called 'how to be a hit man'.....Paladin sued, and lost...freedom of the press....
do I need to continue....every one of your rights, god given rights acording to the drafters of the bill of right have been infringed, 2nd ammendment, there is now regiestration of firarms owners, not guns, and it's a situation where the paper work has to remain on file for 20 years, 7 if there was no transfer...4th...probable cause...well in the eyes of the law a refusal to allow a search IS probable cause to tear your house apart....5th...confessions made under duress, happens everyday, 'tell us and we will go easy on you, if you dont....' (insert string of BS here) 6th...I was told by a court officia the a person is guilty until they prove their inocense, the case was regarding a forged check from a friends bank account, he was given a chare 'worthless check', someone stole the book and wrote a couple....he was arrested, we went to show documentation proving that it wasnt him through handwriting analisys and they still forced him into court...there were several other charges brought against him while he was incarcerated, crimes he couldnt have commited because he was in jail....I can site examples of violations of both laws and rights under the constitution that were commited by judges, elected officials, law enforcement and big buisness, none of whome have seen prosecution and the majority of which have been kept from the public eye...



Quote:

If you can come up with enough trivial examples.. why does it matter? I'm safe. I'm living in a society which I actually believe in. I've been imbibing narcotics for at least 5 years now, and I've never been caught, though I have been honest with my parents.

EDIT: Never been caught, but if I was caught, I would be perfectly honest with police officers/juries/judges. I wouldn't try to hide behind technicalities, I would accept the consequences for my decisions; something which is not very common. (End EDIT)

Furthermore, how does that quote hold it's validity in the 21st century, when it was written in the 18th (or perhaps 19th) century?

I'm eagerly awaiting your response.




well....even though you feel that your confession of no wrong doing will keep you out of trouble, it wont, I have experienced it firsthand and have witnessed it on many occasions, honesty with the powers will get you nothing but more time, it wiil get friends, family and loved ones harrased and even charged with complicity, it will get your property and money siezed under the ever expanding RICO act...

if you believe you are safe in this society, you must believe the TV and News media....I feel sory for you, I see crimes commited against the people of this country everyday, I see government gaining more and more power over our lives everyday and more stripped from us...all through legislation like the patriot act and its bastard brother that will be in the house soon, Patriot 2....and if you think that the toilet paper that we call the constitution is a trivial example of things being violated....well...you must be one of them.....


Prisoner#1


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #1321742 - 02/20/03 10:38 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

>>>Exception to this rule might be small town cops that are bored and have nothing better to do then bust some small time grower <<<

Don't forget cowardly cops that would rather fuck with potheads, and other harmless non-violent people than deal with cleaning up a bad neighborhood.

Potheads don't fight back like crackheads do.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: CeeEssGee]
    #1321784 - 02/20/03 10:47 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you can come up with enough trivial examples.. why does it matter?  I'm safe.  I'm living in a society which I actually believe in.  I've been imbibing narcotics for at least 5 years now, and I've never been caught, though I have been honest with my parents.

EDIT: Never been caught, but if I was caught, I would be perfectly honest with police officers/juries/judges.  I wouldn't try to hide behind technicalities, I would accept the consequences for my decisions; something which is not very common. (End EDIT)




Hmmmm, you believe in your society?!  Then you must also think that you yourself are evil and should go to jail.  You've been imbibing narcotics for 5 years now, and you say that you would suffer the consequences yourself.  You are either very stupid, or very ignorant.....
You say you believe in your society, then turn yourself in and support the society that you feel is so great!

hypocrite! :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineChills420 version2
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Re: The LEGAL side of PF's Bust [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1321805 - 02/20/03 10:53 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Ok i understand kinda why the got busted but heres another good ?

If the got basicly busted for selling spores and instructions on how to do it
Why hasn't homestead been busted????

They have been around longer than anyone and I think they are bolder about growing than anyother vendor.

They have a how to with pics in there kits. My buddy works at a headshop and we were looking thru there kits.
I just got off the phone with him and he is scanning it so I can show u guys.
He's going to email it to me in a few.


--------------------

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.



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