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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1252028 -

What do you mean by "depth"?

Making up your own mind after careful thought? Thoroughly esearched before arriving at your conclusions. Making decisions based on other reasons than blindly following what someone else tells you.

When I reached adolescence all my friends were Lefties

I guess that's where we differ - I'd never come to a conclusion simply because the people around me said it. I'd have to look deeper and make my own mind up.

To use YOUR phraseology, it shows that society's brainwashing had done its job on me.

No, it shows you had done little exploring of the subject and blindly followed what your friends told you.

Almost everyone I knew, from teachers to friends to co-workers, held pretty much the same views. I just assumed they were probably pretty much right.

Nah, it's always better to make up your own mind.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1252062 -


pinksharkmark wrote:

Almost everyone I knew, from teachers to friends to co-workers, held pretty much the same views. I just assumed they were probably pretty much right.


Nah, it's always better to make up your own mind.

Everybody claims to think for themselves. Sadly, I am coming to the conclusion
that few people actually do.

Edited by RandalFlagg (01/27/03 04:11 AM)

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1252069 -

Pinkie isn't claiming to think for himself, at least at that time in his life.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1252087 -


Pinkie isn't claiming to think for himself, at least at that time in his life.

He is looking back on a certain time in his life and recognizing that he
tended to absorb attitudes instead of thinking them through for himself.
Many young people do this. I will readily admit that I did this myself. The
scary thing is, is that when I was in this stage, I really did think I was
thinking for myself, even though I wasn't.

I am not saying young people are stupid. I just think that wisdom is something
that is not always present in youth.

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1252241 -

Alex123 writes:

Making up your own mind after careful thought? Thoroughly esearched before arriving at your conclusions. Making decisions based on other reasons than blindly following what someone else tells you.

How much careful thought did you apply when your history teachers taught you that the British Empire consisted of 75% of the globe rather than 25%? Did you not blindly follow what they told you? And I mean literally BLINDLY follow, disregarding the evidence of your own eyes -- observe that the color-keyed maps provided by contributors to this forum make it easy for even a schoolboy to see at a quick glance that the British Empire didn't exceed 25% of the globe.

For those readers who might have missed your January 9 post on the subject in the thread titled "Should we?", allow me to reprint it here:

"Strange, every english schoolboy learns in basic history the fact that the british empire ruled three-quarters of the globe. The globe is brought out and the red bits clearly cover a good 3/4 of the globe. It's standard knowledge. Apparantly the history books need rewriting, because according to two clueless americans it was actually only 1/4.

"Sorry, but I think I'll stick with the history masters for now."


I guess "masters" is an accurate term in your case.

I'd never come to a conclusion simply because the people around me said it. I'd have to look deeper and make my own mind up.

Unless the evidence presented to you contradicted what you prefer to believe. See above. Not only did you believe as a schoolboy your masters' erroneous claims on faith, but you still believe their claims and defend them fanatically in the face of irrefutable evidence provided by at least three different contributors. Note that one of the maps was even from an ENGLISH source -- perhaps the same source your masters used.

No, it shows you had done little exploring of the subject and blindly followed what your friends told you.

As an adolescent I didn't do much independent exploring, true -- after a full day of classes I had little urge to expend more effort looking up nuggets that would contradict what I was being taught. This was in the pre-internet days, remember. I (and my friends) made the cardinal sin of assuming that schoolteachers were interested in disseminating fact rather than opinion. My bad. Once I was out in the real world supporting myself, I did more than a little exploring. Would that more people did the same -- perhaps then we'd have fewer adolescent views being espoused on this forum by people old enough to no longer have callowness as an excuse.

Nah, it's always better to make up your own mind.

Agreed. Why then do you criticize me for doing exactly that?

pinky


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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1252428 -

How much careful thought did you apply when your history teachers taught you that the British Empire consisted of 75% of the globe rather than 25%?

3/4 could well be an underestimate as the British Navy ruled the oceans and enforced control of them just as much as any land territory.

I think we can all agree that a 120 year old percentage figure is a little less important than basing your entire system of political belief on what you are told. America controls nowhere except america on the map, it's influence and control are obviously far greater than what can be seen on a map.

Not only did you believe as a schoolboy your masters' erroneous claims on faith,

Bear in mind that the exact percentage of the globe the British Empire controlled 120 years ago was not a subject I considered particularly important. Certainly far less important than understanding the world around me. This is perhaps where we differ.

This was in the pre-internet days, remember.

I get most of my information from books. Always have, always will.

Once I was out in the real world supporting myself, I did more than a little exploring.

But what depth do you views have? Clearly your understanding of socialism was worthless, is your understanding of Ayn Rand any better? Or have you simply been influenced by others in the opposite direction? What independent analysis have you ever done?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1252635 -

Quote:
Clearly your understanding of socialism was worthless, is your understanding of Ayn Rand any better?


It isn't clear to me that Pinky's understanding of socialisim is worthless, could you elaborate?


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1252666 -

Alex123 writes:

I get most of my information from books. Always have, always will.

As do I. In those days I had to hop on a bus or hitch hike to the library to obtain books. Our family budget was too tight for a set of encyclopedias.

Please explain to us the substantive difference between obtaining your views from books as opposed to obtaining it from people (teachers) who have read books. Are you trying to say that only something you dream up entirely on your own is valid? If someone at any point in history had an idea that they then told to someone else rather than writing it down, it means that later generations who examine that idea and find it to be correct are delusional?

If that is so, why should we bother to consider any of the views you post here? There is not a single idea you have presented us with in your time here (apart from your imaginary Chinese girls working 36 hours straight for ten cents) that you didn't learn from someone else, be it your mates or your union brothers or your masters or Noam Chomsky or Karl Marx or the guy who told you the best safety device for a car is a foot-long spike sticking up from the steering wheel hub.

Clearly your understanding of socialism was worthless...

Clearly your understanding of Capitalism is worthless.

... is your understanding of Ayn Rand any better?

Is your understanding of Marx any better?

I understand Socialism better than you do, Alex. Wait a minute... perhaps not... could it be that you actually understand it quite well but honestly believe it is pragmatic for some people to force other people to give up their honestly-earned possessions to random strangers? That would explain your inconsistent stance on many issues -- you truly believe that individual rights are nothing more than an inconvenience to those who wish to wield complete power over others. You've never told us how you make your living, Alex... do you suckle at the Socialist public teat or are you a politician?

pinky


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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1252987 -

As do I

Then why the remark about "there was no internet in those days"?

I had to hop on a bus or hitch hike to the library to obtain books

Me too. Didn't stop me tho.

Please explain to us the substantive difference between obtaining your views from books as opposed to obtaining it from people

You were talking about getting your information from the internet in your last post. Books generally explore a book in more depth than the internet. (There's that word "depth" again...)

apart from your imaginary Chinese girls working 36 hours straight for ten cents

Check out the other thread. I provided at least 4 documented examples of third world workers recieving 6-8 cents an hour. I could have listed dozens more. 10 cents was a big overestimate on my part.

or the guy who told you the best safety device for a car is a foot-long spike sticking up from the steering wheel hub.

You mean the expert being interviewed on road safety? He said the less risk people perceive the more risky they drive. Only a complete ignoramus would argue with that. Clearly the guy was making the point in a humourous way, but completly lacking a sense of humour you are unable to comprehend this.

Clearly your understanding of Capitalism is worthless.

How childish. Jjust because I said your understanding of socialism was worthless? I havn't heard anyone argue like this since third grade.

You stated yourself that your belief in socialism had no depth of thought to it whatsoever, that you just "heard other people tell me it was good". If that was the depth of your knowledge clearly it was worthless. Do you agree?

I understand Socialism better than you do

Modest with it too i see... :smirk:

And you also know more about road safety than the road safety expert....

could it be that you actually understand it quite well but honestly believe it is pragmatic for some people to force other people to give up their honestly-earned possessions to random strangers?

If this is what you understand by the term socialism you have proved my point.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1253293 -

Alex123 writes:

Books generally explore a book in more depth than the internet. (There's that word "depth" again...)

I can read the entire works of Karl Marx or Frederick Bastiat over the internet.

Making decisions based on other reasons than blindly following what someone else tells you.

As usual, you are dodging the point. I ask again -- what is the difference between blindly following what someone tells you in a series of lectures and blindly following what someone tells you on a written page?

10 cents was a big overestimate on my part.

Are you really going to make me dig back through your series of posts where your mythical Chinese girl went from one who was a teenager working 16 hours for 80 cents a day to one who worked 20 hour shifts for 40 cents a day to one who worked 26 hour shifts for 20 cents to a pre-adolescent girl who worked 36 hours a day for ten cents to a pre-adolescent girl who worked 36 hour shifts for 10 cents an hour? Because I have a few spare hours on my hands this week, Alex, and I might do just that.

Why don't you just admit that the whole thing was an outright fabrication?

Clearly the guy was making the point in a humourous way, but completly lacking a sense of humour you are unable to comprehend this.

Good grief but you have gall! *I* knew from the beginning he was speaking tongue in cheek. You, however, blustered on and on for half a dozen posts before finally being forced to concede the point, when *I* pointed out to you that he was not speaking literally. Would you like me to post the link to that little exchange so you can refresh your memory?

Jjust because I said your understanding of socialism was worthless? I havn't heard anyone argue like this since third grade.

My understanding of Socialism is far from worthless. It is apparent from your closing comment that your understanding of its fundamental principles is incomplete. However, your posts on Capitalism show quite clearly that you don't understand even its most fundamental principles.

You stated yourself that your belief in socialism had no depth of thought to it whatsoever, that you just "heard other people tell me it was good". If that was the depth of your knowledge clearly it was worthless.

Once again, you deliberately mis-state facts. At the time I left school, my understanding of Socialism was incomplete. It didn't stay that way forever. It wasn't until I had thought through (with the guidance of others who had done so before I had) all the aspects of Socialism that I rejected it as immoral.

If this is what you understand by the term socialism you have proved my point.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly -- you are saying that in a Socialist system, I don't have to let the government take my stuff so they can give it to people I have never met? Do the Marxists know about this recent development?

pinky


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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1253608 -


pinksharkmark wrote:

could it be that you actually understand it quite well but honestly believe it is pragmatic for some people to force other people to give up their honestly-earned possessions to random strangers?


Alex123 wrote:

If this is what you understand by the term socialism you have proved my point.

Alex, need I remind you of some things?

1. Certain people in this forum have detailed glaring weaknesses with controlled
economies where income redistribution occurs(i.e. socialism and communism).

Anytime anybody has brought up valid points arguing against socialism and
communism, you would either try to divert attention away from your lack of
response, or you would just not answer at all.

2. When I asked you what kind of economic and governmental system you would
prefer, you never did answer.

If you are such an informed supporter of socialism, I would think you would use
every chance to tout its benefits, and articulately argue against capitalism. Yet,
I have never seen a serious attempt at either from you.

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1253760 -

Quote:
War is bad for business.

Sorry but this is nonsense. War is the driver and motivator for massive areas of the economy. It's basic economics said by pretty much everyone from Keynes on.




Yup, let the good times roll.....
------------------------------------

Stocks Sink Amid War Fears







Monday, January 27, 2003

NEW YORK ? Stocks fell sharply Monday, with the blue-chip Dow tumbling below 8,000 for the first time since Oct. 15, as investors ignored upbeat data on brisk home sales, opting to sell amid growing uncertainty over Iraq.





The Dow closed down 141.45 points, or 1.7 percent, at 7,989.56, suffering its seventh loss in eight sessions, for a combined drop of 853 points. The blue chips last traded below 8,000 on Oct. 15 and last closed below that level Oct. 14, when they stood at 7,877.40.

The broader market was also down. The Nasdaq composite index fell 16.86, or 1.3 percent, to 1,325.28. The Standard & Poor's 500 index fell 13.92, or 1.6 percent, to 847.48, having fallen on Friday, as the Dow did, to levels last seen in October.

Sentiment was dented by a growing threat of war and fears of what a protracted conflict would do to a sluggish economy after chief United Nations arms inspector Hans Blix said Iraq "seems not to have genuinely accepted disarmament demands."

"Iraq is front and center," said Richard Cripps, chief market strategist for investment firm Legg Mason Wood Walker. "Worry is a quagmire. There's no resolution in sight and that uncertainty backs into business investment decisions, creating a vacuum that sellers are filling."

"It's the continued cycle of uncertainty," said Fahnestock & Co. strategist Alan Ackerman. "There's an increased level of uncertainty at a time when the market itself is brittle, with weak technical underpinnings."

Blix, whose team spent two months hunting for evidence of banned weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, said Iraq has cooperated in providing access in opening sites for inspection but had fallen short in filling in the gaps of last month's declaration of its weapons programs.

The U.N. report comes a day before President Bush's State of the Union speech in which he will try to rebuild international support for a potential strike on Iraq as well as answer growing doubts from the U.S. public.

"Until the president's speech is digested, the market is going to be dicey," Ackerman said.

The widely anticipated report from Blix did little to dispel the fear of war in world financial markets, as stocks around the globe and the dollar fell, while safe-haven gold spiked to its highest level in more than six years.

"It's just war, war, war fears. The fear index is running neck to neck with the price of gold," said Peter Cardillo, chief strategist at Global Partners Securities.

Stocks briefly rose on news that sales of existing U.S. homes surged 5.2 percent in December while home sales for 2002 set a record. European markets also briefly turned positive, with traders pinning the move on talk that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was going into exile. But overseas markets slumped when there was no confirmation of the rumor.

The war factor continues "to overhang not only the domestic but the global markets and the market continues to ignore some good economic news," Cardillo said. "But we are in the final states of discounting before some military intervention takes place."

Dow stock Johnson & Johnson (JNJ) lost $1.43 to $52.18. The drug giant said it will record a fourth-quarter charge after an arbitrator ordered it to reimburse Amgen Inc. for attorneys' fees and costs incurred in a dispute over anemia drug licensing rights. Amgen lost $1.46 to $50.78 on Nasdaq.

The specter of war has haunted the market for months. Corporate profits have already been hit by the sluggish economy, and a conflict in the Middle East could delay capital spending and keep a lid on earnings growth. This week marks one of the busiest periods of the fourth-quarter earnings season, and many companies are not showing any profits improvement.

Freddie Mac (FRE), the No. 2 U.S. mortgage finance company, dropped $2.51, or 4.2 percent, to $56.60. The company said it would not provide a 2003 earnings forecast or an interest margin outlook amid a cloudy business environment.

Meat company Tyson Foods Inc. (TSN) sank $1.25 to $10.24. The company said earnings sank, hurt by high grain prices as well as low meat prices due to oversupply.

Communications chip maker Broadcom Corp. (BRCM) tumbled 95 cents to $14.16, or more than 6 percent. Last week the company's founder and chief executive resigned and it posted a quarterly loss of $1.76 billion after special charges.

Lear Corp.(LEA), the world's fifth-largest automotive parts supplier, rallied $2.18 to $39.87. The company posted a quarterly profit, boosted by higher vehicle production in North America, and said it expected company sales to rise in 2003.

Wall Street's so-called "fear gauge", a key barometer of stock market jitters, rose to its highest level since late October, 2002, but it has not hit the panic levels that usually signal a bear market bottom.

The Chicago Board Options Exchange volatility index (VIX) peaked at an intraday high of 40.89, before retracing to 39.77. This is a contrary indicator and moves opposite stocks, thus a sharp rise in the VIX may suggest the market is overly pessimistic and that stock prices could rise.

"We expect the volatility index to peak between 45 and 50 levels over the next couple of weeks, which may signal an intermediate term bottom in the stock market," said Price Headley, chief analyst with advisory firm BigTrends.com.

Declining stocks trounced advancers about 3 to 1 on the New York Stock Exchange and more than 2 to 1 on Nasdaq. More than 1.4 billion shares changed hands on the Big Board and Nasdaq, respectively.

The Russell 2000 index, which tracks smaller company stocks, fell 6.48, or 1.7 percent, to 368.58.

Overseas, Japan's Nikkei stock average finished Monday down 1.4 percent. In Europe, France's CAC-40 slid 3.6 percent, Britain's FTSE 100 dropped 3.4 percent and Germany's DAX index lost 2.7 percent.

Reuters and the Associated Press contributed to this report.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1253894 -

pinksharkmark wrote:
War is bad for business.
Alex123 wrote:
Sorry but this is nonsense. War is the driver and motivator for massive areas of the economy. It's basic economics said by pretty much everyone from Keynes on.

Sorry Alex, but your understanding of economics is seriously flawed as Luvdem has pointed out. Of course, such sloppy economic thinking is to be expected from a marxist. You may be operating under what has been termed 'the broken window fallacy.' Points to consider:
1) War is destructive. Capital is destroyed whenever property is destroyed.
2) Money is diverted from other productive enterprises towards the war effort. Do not let the profit of certain war related sectors blind you to the fact that other sectors of the economy suffer when capital and human resources are diverted away from them.
3) Bombs and various other munitions are not re-used, unused munitions can generally not be used in any non-war related capacity.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (01/27/03 02:47 PM)

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1254263 -

working 16 hours for 80 cents a day

Are you serious? Does it matter whether they are making 6 cents an hour or 10 cents? They are paid miserably, work in hellish conditions and often die miserable deaths poisoned by the toxic chemicals they handle. They are being used and brutalised as slaves. Do you think that would be ok if they were paid 15 cents a day? What kind of excuse for a human being are you?

Good grief but you have gall! *I* knew from the beginning he was speaking tongue in cheek

Not quite. You denied the conclusions of the experts and insisted safety measures made people drive more safely. You were wrong. When you realised this you panicked and went down your usual route - take the most ludicrous stance you could adopt and hammer it into the ground. And while it may have been tongue in cheek it was perfectly valid. If every car on the road had a spike in the steering wheel people would take a lot more care when they drove.

My understanding of Socialism is far from worthless.

Make up your mind. You said when you were a young man you believed in socialism because your mates told you it was good. You admit you had zero knowledge of it. I'd call that pretty worthless.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1254276 -

Certain people in this forum have detailed glaring weaknesses with controlled

In your opinion. As you are a right-winger you are likely as not a little biased.

I've certainly never read anyone point out any "glaring weaknesses" with controlled economies.

or you would just not answer at all.

You want me to explain socialism to you? Can't you read a textbook? I don't have the time.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1254303 -


Certain people in this forum have detailed glaring weaknesses with controlled


In your opinion. As you are a right-winger you are likely as not a little biased.

I've certainly never read anyone point out any "glaring weaknesses" with controlled economies.

I take it you never read through all of my posts during my argument with "Eric"
in the "communism" thread. I explicitly detail weaknesses with the concept of
economies based upon wealth redistribution.

In my opinion, "Eric" never adequately addressed my arguments, and you never
made an attempt to.

or you would just not answer at all.


You want me to explain socialism to you? Can't you read a textbook? I don't have
the time.

I understand what socialism is. But, there are many forms of socialism, each with
varying controls in different areas. For example, Canada has some aspects
that could be called "socialist"(the health care system, welfare, etc..), but
free enterprise is still allowed.

If you were to give a brief synopsis of how you think things "should be run", it
would clear up a lot of things.


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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1254341 -


pinksharkmark wrote:
My understanding of Socialism is far from worthless.


Alex123 wrote:

Make up your mind. You said when you were a young man you believed in socialism because your mates told you it was good. You admit you had zero knowledge of it. I'd call that pretty worthless.

Taking into account the track record of attempted communism, I would say that
your affinity for it(which is quite apparent in some of your posts) is worthless.

However, in past posts, I have detailed the difference between communism and
socialism. It may shock you that I believe that a few aspects of socialism should
be implemented, or remain if they are already present(such as care for the
mentally retarded, public education, etc..).

You really do need to address what you think is the best economic and
governmental system. Are you a communist or a socialist? How should things
be run?


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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1254649 -

your affinity for it

Some aspects of communism are helpful, some aspects of capitalism are helpful. Just not the rabid Reagan-Bush fundamentalist version of capitalism.

Are you a communist or a socialist?

Neither.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1254997 -

Quote:
Just not the rabid Reagan-Bush fundamentalist version of capitalism.




What aspects of the rabid "Regan-Bush fundamentalist" version do you have a problem with? I'm not saying that I like it either, I'm just wondering what problems you have with it.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1256899 -

Alex123 proclaims his ability to make up his own mind:

Making up your own mind after careful thought? Thoroughly esearched before arriving at your conclusions. Making decisions based on other reasons than blindly following what someone else tells you.

I then remind him of his blind reliance on a brief television blurb from an "expert" -- some guy who says a spike in the steering wheel is the best auto safety measure, and on his apparently senile English history masters who told him the British Empire was 3/4 of the earth.

Alex brushes off the British Empire thing as irrelevant since it is from more than a century ago, and besides the British Empire really was 3/4 of the globe, so there!

He then claims that his auto safety expert was making his point in a humorous manner, and chastises me for not recognizing that. When I remind him that it was actually *I* who first suggested the guy was exaggerating, he denies it and pouts: "When you realised this you panicked and went down your usual route - take the most ludicrous stance you could adopt and hammer it into the ground." He then repeats: "If every car on the road had a spike in the steering wheel people would take a lot more care when they drove." I leave it to the reader to determine which of us is adopting the more ludicrous stance.

In order to assist the reader in this determination, let me provide the original exchange here. There were some additional comments in a fourth thread, which I have been unable to find -- it had a title like "Are you intelligent?" or "Do you think you are intelligent" or something like that. For whatever reason, the search engine won't let me locate this thread, so we'll just have to make do with three out of the four threads for the moment.

Alex123 -- This is a similar argument to the one about safety in cars. I bet you're a big believer in airbags and making cars as safe as they can be right? WRONG. If people feel invulnerable they take massive risks. The most effective safety addition to any car is a foot long steel spike sticking out of the driving wheel. --- posted Sept 6, 2002 in the thread titled "2nd Amendment to Justify Shooting Pigs?" http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum14&Number=854390&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=4&vc=1

pinksharkmark -- If you really believe that, you're insane. --- posted Sept 6, 2002: 2nd Amendment thread

Alex123 -- Sorry man, but if you had a spike in your steering wheel you would drive slower, leave bigger gaps between cars, look more carefully before pulling out etc. The studies have shown that the more safety devices you introduce in cars the higher the accident rate goes. People drive like maniacs when they think they are protected from harm. --- posted Sept 6, 2002: "2nd Amendment" thread

pinksharkmark -- So you really were serious? Okay. NOW I understand how you can post some of the other comments you do. --- posted Sept 6, 2002: "2nd Amendment" thread

pinksharkmark -- We weren't picking on you in particular, Alex -- he was pretty amazed at some of the other regular posters here -- but he did just about choke laughing at your "foot long sharpened steel spike jutting out of the steering wheel" safety feature for cars. --- posted Oct 5, 2002 in the thread titled: "Neville's Folly" http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum14&Number=924252&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1

Alex123 -- Yawn...check out the car accident rate and see if it has increased or decreased with added safety features in cars. Every expert on road safety will tell you the same thing. Making people feel invulnerable makes them drive with less care and attention. There's really no argument about that. --- posted Oct 5, 2002: "Neville's Folly" thread

Alex 123 -- Incidentally the spike wasn't my idea, I saw an interview with an expert on road accidents who was asked whether installing airbags was going to cut the number of accidents. He laughed and said exactly the opposite, the accident rate was still increasing and the most effective safety addition you could make to a car would be to install a steel spike on the wheel. He'd been involved in the area for over 30 years. --- posted Oct 5, 2002: "Neville's Folly" thread

***Note how readily Alex accepts this absurd proposition. Did he "make up his own mind after careful thought?" Did he "thoroughly research it" before accepting this guy's opinion? Did he make his own decision "based on other reasons than blindly following what someone else" told him? Nope. He accepted (and tenaciously defended) what some guy on the telly told him.***

pinksharkmark -- I agree with him on the airbag issue. I personally think airbags are worse than useless. But they are orders of magnitude less worthless than a spike sticking out of a steering wheel. Are you really not capable of recognizing when someone is exaggerating to make a point? --- posted Oct 5, 2002: in the thread titled" The old "spike in the steering wheel ploy", eh? (This thread started in Political Discussion and was moved by Jammer to The Chill Out Room). http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=chillout&Number=933894&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

VSOPXO -- Forget everything else. ANYONE who says driving with a fucking foot long spike sticking out of the steering wheel is the safest option is clearly retarded. Nobody should even argue with a jackass like that. --- posted Oct 5, 2002: The "old spike" thread

Alex123 -- It was obviously being used to make a point. The expert saying it had over 30 years experience in traffic safety. How many have you had? --- posted Oct 5, 2002: The "old spike" thread

*** FINALLY Alex accepts my suggestion that the guy was speaking figuratively. ***

Alex, you have been ridiculing my TEMPORARY youthful acceptance of some of what my Leftie teachers taught me and what my friend and co-workers believed in, i.e. Socialism. At least I didn't obtain my original incomplete opinions on Socialism from some TV interview.

pinky


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