Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 |  [ show all ]
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1246148 -

In due time I thought of outlining my method for becoming effective politically. Those here that are willing to roll up their sleeves and not afraid to get their hands dirty can change things. I will offer my advice in another attempt to "make it happen".

Please do this, as I am truly interested. Thanks again.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1246171 -

Thor writes:

Pinky, you know one day I'll probably be sitting down with you in DR and drinking some nice tropical drinks..

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I've been hearing THAT promise for two years now. Anyway, take it from a bartender -- most of those tropical drinks are overrated. Believe me when I tell you you won't enjoy a "Melon Melody" or a "Coconut Moonlight". On the other hand, Presidente beer is the bomb, and a Cuba Libre made with Dominican rum is a thing of beauty.

However I've grown to believe that arguing with someone who obviously will never bend or see your point is fruitless.

Oh, but I DO see your point. Simply by the fact that I have spent more time on earth than you have so far (not that I can take any credit for that), I've heard those points before, from many sources, in great detail. Seeing a point is not the same as agreeing with it. On some things I will not bend, not because I am close-minded, but because the opinion being expressed is WRONG.

If I brought out statistics to prove my points, you'd reply with 'anyone can find statistics' ..

Incorrect. I use statistics myself. Why don't you post some statistics proving your points (and the SOURCES for those statistics) and we'll see? But I am curious -- what statistics will "prove" your assertion that America is being led "down a path that harms their place in this world"?

If I said anything remotely vague, you'd counter, etc...

So sorry, but some of what you said was more than "remotely" vague. And note that I was careful not to COUNTER, I asked for clarification. You do neither of us a favor by being vague. If you've got a beef, SPELL IT OUT. I have been accused of many things on this board, but never of being vague. I don't make loose and sloppy assertions, I detail my arguments in as specific terms as I know how in order to avoid any possibility of misinterpretation.

In the end its my viewpoint vs yours.. I'm not wrong, neither are you..

So sorry, but it is impossible for people holding diametrically opposing viewpoints to both be right. For example, some here believe the UN has the right to force Iraq to comply by the terms of the surrender agreement it signed. Others believe the UN has no such right. Are you claiming that NEITHER faction is wrong? Please explain to us how that is possible.

I don't know if you truly get upset at people who don't share your unique vision...

I don't get upset, I merely point out their errors. And, my viewpoint is far from unique, although there are less people who post here that share it than oppose it. Incidentally, have you ever wondered why those who share my point of view are over 40 years old, while those who oppose it are under 40 (and probably 95% are under 30)? Furthermore, I (and others) have admitted to holding similar views when we were younger. What does that tell you?

None of us are less valid in another for having our unique thoughts..

I didn't say you were invalid, just that some of the views you hold are incorrect.

Of course there are sheep here too who spout what they've been told instead of what they've learned, but I think most people here are intelligent people who have very strong opinions.

Holding an opinion strongly does not make that opinion any more valid. And, I don't ask anyone to accept my opinions simply because I know they are correct. I frame my arguments in such a way as to get people to THINK THEM THROUGH for themselves.

...if you are an American who says America sucks then nobody gets upset...

Incorrect. I know you spend less time in this forum than I do, and your time is too limited to read every post made here in the last two years, but I can assure you that the majority of posts critical to America are made by Americans, and that some people get just as upset over those posts as they do over posts made by Canadians or Europeans.

However if you don't live in America and say anything against the US you are blasted for dare saying anything at all.

And if you don't live in America (as I don't) and you say anything in FAVOR of the US, you are blasted even worse.

I guess the rule is that anyone not living in the US can not have an opinion on the US...

Of course you can. You can even post those opinions here. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

...a country which reaches all over this world, is the worlds dominant superpower, dominant economic power, hugely patriotic country, that has no problem in telling the world it is second best to them.

Did you ever wonder how it BECAME the world's dominant power? Hint: it was not through conquest, or through seizing the resources of other nations, or through "exploiting" workers.

...the anger from many people in the US is just they want to be liked but they don't want to be accountable for their actions in this world.

Which actions? As an example, they are angry that the WTC was attacked. What reasons did the attackers give for their actions? That the US infidels were violating the sanctity of the holy places by their presence. Note that the troops stationed in Saudi Arabia are there at the request of the recognized government of Saudi Arabia. Note further that this government, harsh as it may be, is recognized by EVERY member nation of the UN, including Iceland and Canada. So let me ask you, when the Saudi government requested that the US leave behind a garrison of troops after Iraq had been ousted from Kuwait, should the US have said, "So sorry, no can do. You see, some people who don't like you guys may decide ten years down the road to hijack some planes and kill a few thousand civilians in downtown Manhattan. Why don't you ask the Italians instead?"

What can I say, empires are a curse..

And exactly what "empire" does the US preside over?

Its fun to be the most powerfull nation, but with it comes great responsibility and scrutiny.

I wouldn't say it was fun at all.

Look, I am critical of the US government. I am against the War on Drugs. I cried over Kent State. I protested the war in Viet Nam, and got whacked on the head for my trouble and was locked up with a bunch of others. I believe American politicians are betraying the American dream, running roughshod over the Constitution, and are in the business of wholesale violation of the rights of US citizens. But there is certainly enough to criticize about what they actually DO. What I have no patience for is the endless whinings of what they MIGHT do, or their supposed MOTIVES for choosing a particular action, or outright fabrications with no basis in reality. If you believe some of the nut jobs who post here, the US "installed" every thug in power in the world today. They "exploit" people in other countries and "drain" the resources of nations who have none to begin with. Sorry I can't work up much sympathy for some musician moaning that the American media chooses not to showcase more prominently that which fits HIS personal definition of what constitutes "unsubtle and original thought".

How many people here post about the terrible War on Drugs that the US is waging? Want to take a guess as to how many of those people live in a country where they can grow their own weed or poppies or mushrooms?

How many people here post about the horrible conditions of workers in totalitarian countries whose best option is to accept a job offer from an American (and, in many cases, not EVEN an American, simply a foreign) "sweatshop"? Do any of them wonder WHY accepting such employment is such a no-brainer for those people? Oh, no -- it is AMERICA'S fault that no better alternatives exist.

If you want automatic agreement from every poster on this forum, post something you know we ALL agree on -- that drugs should be legalized. If you choose to post something controversial and ask for the contributors to post their thoughts on it, don't be offended when some of those thoughts aren't in line with your own way of perceiving the world.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1246226 -

Quote:
Yeah, yeah, yeah... I've been hearing THAT promise for two years now. Anyway, take it from a bartender -- most of those tropical drinks are overrated. Believe me when I tell you you won't enjoy a "Melon Melody" or a "Coconut Moonlight". On the other hand, Presidente beer is the bomb, and a Cuba Libre made with Dominican rum is a thing of beauty.


lol, ok you got me there.. But I swear man, the time will come in the next year or two :smile:

When I was there last all I drank was presidente and cuba libre... That beer is like a heineken but much better, I really miss that stuff..

I'll respond to your thoughts later, I dont' have the energy right now, you have too much energy for these discussions.. Its hard to keep up :smile:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Skikid16]
    #1246232 -

Indeed.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1246779 -

Quote:
The answer to the first questions is, depends. It depends upon who is doing the criticizing. Whether our President is right or wrong about an issue is really secondary to how I react to statements about him. Is the criticizer Osama Bin Ladin or someone who supported the President when he ran for office. Maybe that's being narrow-minded but if it is then I stand guilty as charged.


Well the criticizer is a friend of the US. Like myself, I criticize the US and hope you see the issue instead of the rehtoric :smile:

Quote:
I think you already have an idea about all this because of the way Senor Doobie explained it to you. I may complain to my buddy about my wife but if he begins to criticize her day in and day out sooner or later he will have lost my friendship and if he persists after that he may lose some teeth.


But do you say to the world your wife is perfect and a shining beacon to how a woman should be? :smile:

Quote:
What most people fail to consider is that our President is just a man, no greater and no less than many men. He has feelings and loyalities that are the result of the way he was raised and the environment he grew up in. I think that this business of war with Iraq has more to do with those things than it has do with oil. Oil is such an easy answer. Why do you think the press promotes it? They ardently wish to turn public opinion away from him because they despise him, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, et al excepted.


But Bush and his family come from oil in their past. We don't forget he's a man, but a man that beats the drums of war and not much else since 9-11.. He is doing so much damage to world relations with his 'you are with us or against us' attitude.

Quote:
Make no mistake about it. Our President, regardless of what he says or what others say about him, wants revenge. With the military might at his disposal I cannot think of a more dangerous situation for our world.


Couldn't agree more, its very scary indeed.

Quote:
Nothing. The article was the ramblings of a person who sees life on the surface of things without the requisite motivation or equipment to look deeper into the issue. This is why his solutions are, though probably well-meant, have little substance. I do not know his true motivation for writing it. Perhaps his record sales are slow and so his agent thought of a clever way to boost sales by having him climb on this issue. Who knows? Who cares? Certainly not me.


I agree with much of what he says.. I mean do you think the American populace has a good idea of what is going on in the world outside of what CNN tells them?

I have no agenda, in fact I lose something by actually standing up and stating there are many things the US does which upsets me, since many citizens take offense to anything negetive said about their country.

Quote:
Ah American Patriotic hubris. I thought you'd never ask. People feel allegiance to their country much in the same way they feel allegiance to a sports team and with about as much sense attached to it. They wave a flag like so many idiots at a ball game without thinking or knowing what they are doing. They are, as many have pointed out, sheep. When they turn vicious, watch out. For now I'd say keep your eye on the Shepherd, W.


I think we both agree patriotism can be very dangerous.. I'm an Icelandic patriot, but I am quite aware of it and therefore can debate issues that are wrong with my country.

I fear the US citizens, at least many are blinded by media and what little knowledge they have about the world... American's do not travel enough, they do not deal with the outside world.

Quote:
I do not take most comments personally. But enough whining either becomes boring or makes me unsympathetic to the world's problems. At the moment I would close our doors and let the world fix itself without our aid. Perhaps then we'd all be happier.


But its not whining! Its what your own citizens have said as well, at least some of them... Right now the US is pushing itself on the world, with terrible results... If you withdraw completely you will accomplish the same as now..

Quote:
America is far less than perfect. How many other countries have murdered college students with their military? I can only think of two offhand. China, Bejing Square and America, Kent State University. I was a teenager when the military in our country murdered them. I was one of the pot smoking hippies. I do not think I'll ever forget that. Kent State is less than 1 hour from my home and where I was living at the time. My memories are still filled with anguish and hatred over it.


But if I criticized those things wouldn't you be upset? Cause that seems to be the case when anyone outside of America says anything negetive.

All countries have problems, but most countries acknowladge this, but the US seems to have this happy oblivion to what is going wrong... Did anyone complain about the patriot act? How about the war on drugs? People are scared of saying anything because of the media.

Quote:
Good Republicans were in office then too. Rhodes, our Republican Governor and Nixon, our Republican President.

So, what do Americans think of all this? As in most countries Americans are a nation of sheep. It only matters what they think because they elect their leader which at this time commands more fire power than any other country in the world. Aside from that their opinions, like the opinions of sheep, matter not.

We are a divided country. Most of this is the result of the power-brokers. If they keep us at each other's throats they get to reap a bunch of goodies from us. Pandering and exploitation are American traditions just like they are everywhere else.

Here, in the heartland of America, where I live, they elected President Bush in an overwhelming majority. In the cities, where socialism is rife, they elected President elect Gore. Our choices were Bush or Gore. Here, in the heartland, you get to hear the cries of "Glass Parking Lot! Fuck them towel head sums a bitches!" In the cities you get to hear people opine about the plight of the Iraqi people.

In both cases the people parrot out the pet phrases given to them by people that wish to use them for their own ends. I find that far more chilling than any national war. When a person lacks the ability to think clearly about an issue they give power to people that can and will think for them.

Let's all try to avoid that. Elsewise, if you live in America, you might just vote for the person I think you should. After all, it's what I do for a living.

And for the four dead students of Kent State University, Ohio

Bang the drum slowly.......


I couldn't agree more with your sentiments :smile:

But if I said all this others in this forum would get upset because I don't live in America.

The problem is patriotism, many people can't see outside of that.


 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1246827 -

Quote:
Oh, but I DO see your point. Simply by the fact that I have spent more time on earth than you have so far (not that I can take any credit for that), I've heard those points before, from many sources, in great detail. Seeing a point is not the same as agreeing with it. On some things I will not bend, not because I am close-minded, but because the opinion being expressed is WRONG.


So age is the answer? Cause my fathers 1st cousin has been a embassador to Russia, Spain, and Australia in his lifetime.. So my fathers viewpoints include his experience, plus my fathers own extensive life experience..

You say I'm wrong, well I disagree... You think a social net is worthless, and that the US gives more to charity than any other country.. Fine I can believe that, but are those charities only for homeless, destitute? Or AIDS, cancer etc....

Cause America is stupidly wealthy, and yeah they will make all those small countries look cheap.. Especially when those countries already pay out of their pockets to help their fellow man.

Quote:
Incorrect. I use statistics myself. Why don't you post some statistics proving your points (and the SOURCES for those statistics) and we'll see? But I am curious -- what statistics will "prove" your assertion that America is being led "down a path that harms their place in this world"?


Ok, so the patriot act is good? War on drugs? How about the ever increasing discrepancy between the wealthy elite and the middle class? People are struggling with the middle class lifestyle, unlike 30 yrs ago.

America has more violence than any other modern western country, and its all part of what I think is the true crime of ignoring those who are poor and destitute.. Crime often springs from desperation and that the US has in spades with their poor.

Quote:
So sorry, but some of what you said was more than "remotely" vague. And note that I was careful not to COUNTER, I asked for clarification. You do neither of us a favor by being vague. If you've got a beef, SPELL IT OUT. I have been accused of many things on this board, but never of being vague. I don't make loose and sloppy assertions, I detail my arguments in as specific terms as I know how in order to avoid any possibility of misinterpretation.


I never said YOU.. I said me, speaking of my life experience and not statistics, but observations... You know science is a big part of observation..

Quote:
I don't get upset, I merely point out their errors. And, my viewpoint is far from unique, although there are less people who post here that share it than oppose it. Incidentally, have you ever wondered why those who share my point of view are over 40 years old, while those who oppose it are under 40 (and probably 95% are under 30)? Furthermore, I (and others) have admitted to holding similar views when we were younger. What does that tell you?


I want stats! lol... No honestly most of my elders that I know and have discussed this with feel like I do... That the US as a social model is a faulty one.. Social Democracy is what most of my 'elders' I've known believe strongly in.

You think that when I'm 40yrs old that I will agree with you, simply out of age? That infers that anyone disagreeing with you who is over 40 has to be clueless or dumb.. So what about all those people in this world that disagree with you? Authors, leaders, etc.. All clueless right?

Quote:
I didn't say you were invalid, just that some of the views you hold are incorrect.


In your opinion... I think a lot of your opinions are incorrect... Prove me wrong. You say you are right, but what is the definate proof then.

Quote:
Incorrect. I know you spend less time in this forum than I do, and your time is too limited to read every post made here in the last two years, but I can assure you that the majority of posts critical to America are made by Americans, and that some people get just as upset over those posts as they do over posts made by Canadians or Europeans.


Granted I don't spend the time here that you do, but are you saying that Americans are more offended if an opinion comes from someone outside of the US? Cause I'm sure patriotism in America which is tiny (sarcasm) would never feel bothered by a british writer or a french writer :wink:

Quote:
And if you don't live in America (as I don't) and you say anything in FAVOR of the US, you are blasted even worse.


Heh, I dont have problem with praise to America, it deserves quite a bit to be honest.. But in the world scheme it has many problems and thats what the world is most bothered by.

Quote:
Did you ever wonder how it BECAME the world's dominant power? Hint: it was not through conquest, or through seizing the resources of other nations, or through "exploiting" workers.


Yeah it was through WWII.. See the US was not destroyed twice through 2 world wars.. They focused on making weapons for the UK to fight the Nazi's.. The US didn't want anything to do with the war except supply weapons.. Even though the UK begged the US to help it wouldn't touch the war until they were attacked.. WWII devastated Europe and the UK, and the US jumped in and save them both.. But the whole time the US never saw any serious damage except for pearl harbour..

The US got a huge boost from WWII and that started it on the path of a world superpower..

Even without the war it would have become a super power, but WWII made it happen much quicker.

Quote:
Which actions? As an example, they are angry that the WTC was attacked. What reasons did the attackers give for their actions? That the US infidels were violating the sanctity of the holy places by their presence. Note that the troops stationed in Saudi Arabia are there at the request of the recognized government of Saudi Arabia. Note further that this government, harsh as it may be, is recognized by EVERY member nation of the UN, including Iceland and Canada. So let me ask you, when the Saudi government requested that the US leave behind a garrison of troops after Iraq had been ousted from Kuwait, should the US have said, "So sorry, no can do. You see, some people who don't like you guys may decide ten years down the road to hijack some planes and kill a few thousand civilians in downtown Manhattan. Why don't you ask the Italians instead?"


So US foreign policy has done nothing to contribute to the anti-US sentiment? US foreign policy has made some huge mistakes and it has done little to make its reputation anything other than that of a bully and an empire.

Quote:
And exactly what "empire" does the US preside over?


lol, well the US is the economic world superpower, and the military world superpower.. The US has bases all over the world, and its attitude is that of an empire.

You think the US is not a world empire similar to the likes of the British empire or Roman empire?

Quote:
I wouldn't say it was fun at all.


It was sarcasm, sorry I didn't make that clearer. :smile:

Quote:
Look, I am critical of the US government. I am against the War on Drugs. I cried over Kent State. I protested the war in Viet Nam, and got whacked on the head for my trouble and was locked up with a bunch of others. I believe American politicians are betraying the American dream, running roughshod over the Constitution, and are in the business of wholesale violation of the rights of US citizens. But there is certainly enough to criticize about what they actually DO. What I have no patience for is the endless whinings of what they MIGHT do, or their supposed MOTIVES for choosing a particular action, or outright fabrications with no basis in reality. If you believe some of the nut jobs who post here, the US "installed" every thug in power in the world today. They "exploit" people in other countries and "drain" the resources of nations who have none to begin with. Sorry I can't work up much sympathy for some musician moaning that the American media chooses not to showcase more prominently that which fits HIS personal definition of what constitutes "unsubtle and original thought".


The US certainly has done some shady things in south america and central america.. They have made some big mistakes.. They have done some great things to.

But what is the true issue here? Simple American arrogance and American dication of the world... America sets itself as an example for the world to follow, while the rest of the world is insulted by this arrogance.

What is interesting you do see some of the criticisms that the world is upset with yet if I post a link to an article saying the US does this or that wrong you freak out.

Is the rule we can't say anything against the US because they are a superpower?

Quote:
How many people here post about the terrible War on Drugs that the US is waging? Want to take a guess as to how many of those people live in a country where they can grow their own weed or poppies or mushrooms?


Not that many, but what is your point? The US claims to be the land of the free... But most countries in the western world have more freedom than the US. We see the war on drugs for what it is, and this makes our opinion invalid?

Quote:
How many people here post about the horrible conditions of workers in totalitarian countries whose best option is to accept a job offer from an American (and, in many cases, not EVEN an American, simply a foreign) "sweatshop"? Do any of them wonder WHY accepting such employment is such a no-brainer for those people? Oh, no -- it is AMERICA'S fault that no better alternatives exist.


lol, ok then... So the companies in the US that exploit countries for their cheap labour are doing the right thing? Why hire American employess when you can hire a mexican.. Screw the people, profit profit profit! Cause greed makes the world a better place.

So the world is a better place because the US can live off the sweat of 3rd world countries.. Yeah they wont mind when they can barely feed their family and they get the US polluting like 30-40% of the worlds polution.. Yeah how dare anyone in those suffering countries be upset at the huge gap in wealth..

Stupid poor people.

Quote:
If you want automatic agreement from every poster on this forum, post something you know we ALL agree on -- that drugs should be legalized. If you choose to post something controversial and ask for the contributors to post their thoughts on it, don't be offended when some of those thoughts aren't in line with your own way of perceiving the world.


I'm not offended, I just normally choose not to get involved because its a lot of hot air.. I still stick to the point that you will never agree or listen to my beliefs..

In fact you told me I'm wrong, because you are older.. Hmmmm, so 10 yrs from now I'll agree with you?

Sorry, but that won't happen...  :grin:

Can I assume then those people who run Iceland, Sweden, Denmark are all stupid people who at the age of 40 were not able to reach the pinacle of your wisdom?

I mean America is so awesome, yet people in Sweden have a higher standard of living..

Stupid socialism, why should we care for our fellow man :smile: 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1246902 -

A few cases of America's foreign policy gone wrong:

1953 US overthrows Iran's Prime Minister of Iran (Mossadeq). Us installs Shah as dictator

1954 US overthrows democratically elected president Arbez of guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.

1964 US backs assisination of south vietnamese president Diem.

1963-1975 US military kills 4 million people in southeast Asia.

Sept 11, 1973 US stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assasinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5000 chileans murdered.

1977 US backs military leaders of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorians killed and 4 American nuns killed.

1980's US CIA trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill soviets. CIA gives them 3 Billion.

1981 CIA Reagan administration trains and funds 'contras.' 30,000 Nicaraguans die.

1982 US provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983 US secretly gives weapons to Iran to kill Iraqis.

1989 CIA Agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as president of Panama) disobeys orders from washington. US invades Panama and removes Noriega... 3000 Panamanian civilians killed.

1990 Iraq invades Kuwait with US weapons from the US.

1991 US enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

1998 Clinton bombs "weapon factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

1991 to present, UN Nations estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.

2000-2001 US gives Taliban ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "Aid"

Sept 11th, 2001.. Osama bin Laden used his expert training to murder 3000 people.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1246976 -

Aw nobody's perfect.

Seriously Boss, are you a political junkie or what?

Blaming 9/11 on us won't work, ever.

The more I see, the more I think we need to completely mind our own business.

And let the rest of the world go to hell in a handbasket, seriously.

I'll respond to all your other comments to me after I do some moderating. 

Thanks for the comments! :smile:

Cheers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1247153 -

For example, some here believe the UN has the right to force Iraq to comply by the terms of the surrender agreement it signed. Others believe the UN has no such right. Are you claiming that NEITHER faction is wrong? Please explain to us how that is possible.

Well the UN has passed resolutions condemning Israels occupation of the west bank for the last 30 years. So how can it be right to invade one country that "allegedly" breaks UN resolutions whilst supporting another country that has been in clear breach of UN resolutions for 30 years?

Which one is right?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1247543 -

Quote:
The problem is patriotism, many people can't see outside of that.



I completely agree with that.

I think that waving a flag and going to war under the guise of good for ultimately selfish causes and subscribing to those types of beliefs is no different (idealogically) than being in a street gang.

We're slowly growing out of our warlike instinsts because we're reaching a point where we begin to understand that war is not necessary.

Still, many are blinded by patriotism thanks to the media.

War is good business. Quite possibly the best for the folks who have money in "defense" contractors and arms manufacturers...and I think we all know who those "folks" are.
If the percieved need for war were to be snuffed out, a multitude of personal fortunes may be lost, thus the absolute defiance of this natural process displayed by the world's political businessmen.

A majority of people in this world right now DO NOT want war.


Edited by dee_N_ae (01/25/03 07:45 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1247555 -

Patriotism and nationalism are not the same thing. And this "semantic infiltration" that allows you to use them as one and the same is more of a problem than the nationalism that is pushing us into war.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Anonymous]
    #1247581 -

You're right, Nationlistic was completely the wrong word there... I was confused as to it's correct definition which I now know.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1247628 -

Quote:
Aw nobody's perfect.

Seriously Boss, are you a political junkie or what?

Blaming 9/11 on us won't work, ever.

The more I see, the more I think we need to completely mind our own business.

And let the rest of the world go to hell in a handbasket, seriously.

I'll respond to all your other comments to me after I do some moderating. 

Thanks for the comments! :smile:

Cheers 


I don't blame the US for 9-11 sorry if I gave that impression... The west, not just the US needs to do more to help fix relations with the middle east because otherwise many countries will have to deal with terrorim like Israel has had to deal with for so long.

I don't think the US should retreat and ignore the world.. I posted those examples of why many in the world are not happy with the US.. Like you said, nobody's perfect, I couldn't agree more all countries fuck up.

What I'm saying is Americans need to realize that it is important to have good relations with the world, and it will make the world a better place if Americans would do more to repare damaged relations.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1247689 -

Well the criticizer is a friend of the US. Like myself, I criticize the US and hope you see the issue instead of the rehtoric  :smile:

But do you say to the world your wife is perfect and a shining beacon to how a woman should be? :smile:

I think I already mentioned this specifically.  Yes, I do say that my wife is perfect and I do say it to the world.  I mean this literally, not figuratively.  So, imagine we are at a party and it seems most of the group decides to diss my wife.  What would you do if you were me?

But Bush and his family come from oil in their past. We don't forget he's a man, but a man that beats the drums of war and not much else since 9-11.. He is doing so much damage to world relations with his 'you are with us or against us' attitude.

Yes, I am not saying that oil isn't a factor.  But I do not think it is the main one, not for him personally anyway.

Yeah, well after 9/11 I see things pretty much in that light as well.  If you are a country and you want to harbor terrorists then be prepared to take the consequences.  The world should be thankful we showed restraint.  We could have nuked them, but we didn't.

Couldn't agree more, its very scary indeed. 

I try not to get too concerned with things I do not have direct control over.  This gives me peace of mind.

I agree with much of what he says.. I mean do you think the American populace has a good idea of what is going on in the world outside of what CNN tells them?

Do you think that agreement as in consensus means that a proper conclusion has been reached?  Do you think that you or any other person or group of persons are objective in this and the American people are not?  Now who showing hubris?

I am of the opinion that most people have no idea about what is going on in any regard.

I have no agenda, in fact I lose something by actually standing up and stating there are many things the US does which upsets me, since many citizens take offense to anything negetive said about their country.

This is true.  But you are entitled to your viewpoint.  I think we see the management positions differently.  When I was first made Mod I asked the people in SPS whether I should alter the way I posted because I thought, referencing Ythan's link, that a good Mod is less visible.  But the people in my forum wouldn't hear of it.  They wanted my participation.  I still think good Administrators and Moderators are better seen but not heard.  I remember a forum I belonged to for only a short while.  It was a science forum and a discussion came up about pedophilia.  The Administrator thought there wasn't anything wrong with it.  I left that moment never to return.  With our duties and responsibilities come other considerations.  What we say and what we do reflect the Shroomery, for good or ill.  If I were you I'd be silent and let the members bash each other senseless over it.  But that's just me.  Obviously you are well-liked and so people want you to post.  I know I do. :smile:

I think we both agree patriotism can be very dangerous.. I'm an Icelandic patriot, but I am quite aware of it and therefore can debate issues that are wrong with my country.

Yes, I've noticed how much controversy there is in this forum and in world news in particular about Iceland.  Apples to Oranges Boss.  If the tables were turned you might have a different view, i.e. if the majority of the threads and posts in this forum and in world news were negative about Iceland.

I fear the US citizens, at least many are blinded by media and what little knowledge they have about the world... American's do not travel enough, they do not deal with the outside world.

There are a couple of misperceptions here.  First of all, nearly everyone is blinded by the media.  To say otherwise is to indicate what?  Travel does not change a person's viewpoint.  Oftentimes it only compounds it.  Are you saying you have statistics that indicate that Americans travel to other continents less than other people do?  If so please post them.  I know many Americans that travel to other continents a great deal.  Their perception is the same before they travel and afterwards for the most part.  I think you generalize too much.  A habit we all are guilty of.

But its not whining! Its what your own citizens have said as well, at least some of them... Right now the US is pushing itself on the world, with terrible results... If you withdraw completely you will accomplish the same as now..

Many of us do not care what the results are if we withdraw from the world.  We only know we were attacked.  Is that difficult to understand? Perhaps you should travel to New York city and see the carnage and talk to a few New Yorkers, if travel has the effect on you that you think it does on others.  I doubt that it would change your mind anymore than it changes the minds of others.

But if I criticized those things wouldn't you be upset? Cause that seems to be the case when anyone outside of America says anything negetive.

Again, everything is context.  Criticism against the US seems to be reaching near epidemic proportions.  It seems no one remembers 9/11.  I wonder why that is?

All countries have problems, but most countries acknowladge this, but the US seems to have this happy oblivion to what is going wrong... Did anyone complain about the patriot act? How about the war on drugs? People are scared of saying anything because of the media.

Many people complained about those things.  This also seems like a generalization.  People, for the most part, are idiots.

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments 

But if I said all this others in this forum would get upset because I don't live in America.

The problem is patriotism, many people can't see outside of that. :smile:

I hear you Boss.  Thanks for the comments! :smile:

Oh I almost forgot! :smile:  If you are really interested in this perception thing I have a great book with a short section that directly relates to all this.  I own about 6 copies I like it so much.  If you are interested I'll highlight the section and send it to you! :smile:  In it the author explains why Americans see Europeans as they do and why Europeans see Americans as they do.  It's very interesting.  Let me know.

Cheers
   

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: ]
    #1248058 -

Thanks for the replies and the nice words Mr Mushrooms (and Thor).  Like Skikid16, I look forward to seeing your recommendations on how to help make this country an even better place.

PS - I wish you continued success in moving up the political ladder (if that is a goal of yours!)    :laugh: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1248330 -

Quote:
War is good business. Quite possibly the best for the folks who have money in "defense" contractors and arms manufacturers...and I think we all know who those "folks" are.
If the percieved need for war were to be snuffed out, a multitude of personal fortunes may be lost...


There is no telling what the possibilities would be for all the funds that would be freed up from the business of destruction if allowed to be used for different purposes. I suspect that the benefits would be quite pronounced over time.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Evolving]
    #1248500 -

I do too.
However, there seems to be a reluctance (to say the least...) on their part to explore other avenues and ways of making rediculous profits.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Thor]
    #1248927 -

Thor writes:

Fine I can believe that, but are those charities only for homeless, destitute? Or AIDS, cancer etc....

What's the difference? Who is in worse shape, someone living on welfare and food stamps or someone with an incurable disease who will die in agony?

Especially when those countries already pay out of their pockets to help their fellow man.

My point is that Americans do it VOLUNTARILY. Those "paying out of their pockets" have no choice in the matter, and arguably wouldn't if they weren't forced to. We'll never know, will we? What I can tell you as FACT is that the beggars, shoeshine kids and beach vendors here all know not even to bother with a German, a Spaniard, an Italian, a Frenchman or an Englishman. If you want a handout, hit on an American -- they're a sure thing.

Ok, so the patriot act is good? War on drugs?

What has either of those to do with Eno's points? And, I ask again, in how many Western countries can an individual grow weed or shrooms or poppies? Yes, they are illegal in the US, and you can go to jail for possessing them. But there are plenty of people doing time for possession of weed in Canada, too.

How about the ever increasing discrepancy between the wealthy elite and the middle class?

In America it is still possible to become wealthy. In Europe it isn't.

People are struggling with the middle class lifestyle, unlike 30 yrs ago.

Thirty years ago the middle class's savings were being destroyed by government-induced runaway inflation. I was working thirty years ago, I know what it was like then.

Crime often springs from desperation and that the US has in spades with their poor.

Your ideas of what causes violent crime are not necessarily correct. There are plenty of desperate poor in Asia -- far more than in America. Why isn't their violent crime rate higher than America's?

I want stats! lol... No honestly most of my elders that I know and have discussed this with feel like I do... That the US as a social model is a faulty one.. Social Democracy is what most of my 'elders' I've known believe strongly in.

Not surprising, seeing that you've lived in two countries that consider themselves "Social Democracies", and so do your elders. You (and they) were educated in school systems funded by Social Democracies, that spout the Social Democratic party line. Did it occur to you that what you are taught in your formative years might have something to do with the opinions you hold? I know it made a difference to what I believed when I was fresh out of school, too. Although I was never as Socialist as you are, it took me more than a decade of being out in the world to formulate the viewpoint I hold now.

You think that when I'm 40yrs old that I will agree with you, simply out of age?

Not simply out of age. As you pointed out, life experience is of critical importance. Isn't that why you are such a passionate advocate of travel? To gain life experience? Travel takes time. Educating yourself on various philosophies and political theories takes time. Someone in his twenties holds the views he does not because he is any less intelligent than someone in his forties, but simply because he has not yet had the necessary time to examine many alternatives in great detail and to think through their consequences.

That infers that anyone disagreeing with you who is over 40 has to be clueless or dumb.. So what about all those people in this world that disagree with you? Authors, leaders, etc.. All clueless right?

Some believe what they do because they can't be bothered to think through the alternatives. Others because they haven't been taught how to think critically, and still others because it supports their particular agenda. This last is particularly true of leaders of countries. What leader is going to advocate a system that restricts his power over others? This is the biggest reason why there are so many leaders who favor Socialism.

I think a lot of your opinions are incorrect... Prove me wrong.

Which opinions of mine are incorrect? Specifics, Thor... specifics. I can support every one of my opinions, but I'm not going to start listing all of them here in this thread. We're far enough from the topic of Eno's essay already.

The US got a huge boost from WWII and that started it on the path of a world superpower.. Even without the war it would have become a super power, but WWII made it happen much quicker.

Actually, the reverse is true. Immense amounts of time, productive effort, and productive lives literally vanished in the proverbial puff of smoke in WWII. Tremendous amounts more productive effort by the US was literally given away in the post-war years. And incalculable amounts more were spent on developing and maintaining ludicrous stockpiles of constantly obsolescing weaponry whose sole purpose was to dissuade the Soviet Union from swallowing more of Asia and Europe than it had already done in the post-war years.

Anyone who believes that all those wasted (LITERALLY wasted) efforts and resources HELPED the American economy hasn't thought things through.

US foreign policy has made some huge mistakes ...

So why do you object to my suggestion that the US simply stop dealing with foreign nations at all? There would certainly be no more mistakes. And, I hardly think that the people of Kuwait, South Korea, Holland, France, Belgium et al feel that it was a huge mistake for the US to decide to involve itself in the liberation of their countries.

You think the US is not a world empire similar to the likes of the British empire or Roman empire?

Not even close. Rome conquered dozens of nations by force, occupied them by force, and extracted tribute by force. England did the same.

Simple American arrogance and American dication of the world...

You want to talk about arrogance, visit France sometime. Or visit any place where there are German tourists. So Americans are arrogant. So what? Who is harmed? At worst, it gives you something to amuse yourself with. You can laugh at their self-importance. As for "dictating" to the rest of the world -- what on earth are you talking about? Again, I want an example here.

America sets itself as an example for the world to follow, while the rest of the world is insulted by this arrogance.

So what? Why feel insulted? Laugh at them instead.

What is interesting you do see some of the criticisms that the world is upset with yet if I post a link to an article saying the US does this or that wrong you freak out.

I don't freak out. If you point out stuff they have done that was genuinely wrong, I either agree or stay silent. I've said before and will say again that Viet Nam was a huge mistake on their part. The War on Drugs is definitely a mistake. The unconscionable drain on honest earnings pissed away on income redistribution schemes and foreign aid is a huge mistake. But when I see links to gibberish, guesswork, supposed conspiracies, distortions, exaggerations and outright fabrications, I speak up.

Is the rule we can't say anything against the US because they are a superpower?

Say what you want. But when you provide nothing but a link and the word "thoughts?" don't be surprised when some of the thoughts expressed run counter to your own.

But most countries in the western world have more freedom than the US.

So sorry, but that is incorrect.

We see the war on drugs for what it is, and this makes our opinion invalid?

No, but that's one of the first charges out of anyone's mouth. No one seems to remember that EVERY FREAKING COUNTRY IN THE FREAKING WORLD has laws against drugs, and people in prison for drug offenses. To criticize the US for prohibiting drug use is like criticizing it for prohibiting drunk driving. When everybody is doing it, the charge has no force to it. It is simply tedious and makes it appear you are grasping at straws.

So the companies in the US that exploit countries for their cheap labour are doing the right thing?

As I pointed out, it is not merely the US that uses third-world labor. And, as I have pointed out here repeatedly in thread after thread, those "sweatshops", bad as conditions may seem to those of us in the land of $5.00 an hour minimum wage, ARE THE BEST FREAKING ALTERNATIVE THOSE FREAKING PEOPLE HAVE. What would those people do if there were no "sweatshops"? Why don't they continue doing whatever they were doing before the "sweatshop" opened its doors? Thor, I have lived in the Dominican Republic for fifteen years, and I guaran-damn-tee you that there is literally rejoicing in the streets every time another US-owned factory opens here, and wailing and lamentation whenever one closes. If you ever DO make it down here, you and I can talk to some of those people, and you can see for yourself what the people who actually WORK in those places think. You will find it instructive.

Why hire American employess when you can hire a mexican..

So Mexicans don't deserve the opportunity to better themselves?

Screw the people, profit profit profit! Cause greed makes the world a better place.

Without profitable companies, there is nothing for the moochers to mooch, and nothing for the looters to loot. No one can run a non-profitable enterprise for long. Workers are "greedy", too. Do workers not quit a subsistence job the instant they find a better one, even to the point of breaking an employment contract in order to do so?

So the world is a better place because the US can live off the sweat of 3rd world countries..

The US doesn't live off the sweat of third world countries.

Yeah they wont mind when they can barely feed their family...

I repeat, if they can barely feed their family by working in a "sweatshop", why don't they work elsewhere?

...and they get the US polluting like 30-40% of the worlds polution..

Incorrect. The worst cases of pollution are in the undeveloped countries and in totalitarian countries.

Yeah how dare anyone in those suffering countries be upset at the huge gap in wealth..

You don't get a job from a poor person. And why should someone in Bulgaria give a shit how many mansions Bill Gates can buy? It doesn't make a difference one way or the other to the Bulgarian's plight. Oh, just as a minor point here, Bulgarian is apparently one of the hotspots for bootleg Microsoft software. So actually, Bill Gates has raised the standard of living of many Bulgarians.

Stupid poor people.

The poor people working in those factories aren't stupid. The poor people think that those who tell them they should sit around waiting for a $5.00 an hour job to appear in front of them rather than trying to support their family NOW are the stupid ones.

I still stick to the point that you will never agree or listen to my beliefs..

I undoubtedly agree with many of your beliefs. I disagree with many you have expressed in this thread, however. But isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? See your comment a bit further down... the one I have marked with ***

In fact you told me I'm wrong, because you are older..

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Where did I say that? You might want to re-read my posts.

Hmmmm, so 10 yrs from now I'll agree with you?

It is likely that ten years from now we will agree on more points than we do today.

***Sorry, but that won't happen...

It won't? Why is that? Do you think you know all there is to know? You think that nothing anyone can show in the next ten years will change the opinions you hold today? Isn't that just a bit close-minded of you? Not just close-minded, but actually arrogant. I wasn't that close-minded and arrogant when I was your age. As a matter of fact, I'm not that close-minded or arrogant today.

Can I assume then those people who run Iceland, Sweden, Denmark are all stupid people who at the age of 40 were not able to reach the pinacle of your wisdom?

The people who run those countries today have convinced themselves that they have the right to initiate force against their peaceful citizens in order to seize whatever they can get away with so they can play the role of a combination father-figure / Santa Claus / nanny. What's worse is that they have convinced the majority of the populace that this same tired old con game is actually a fair way to deal with people. Does that mean they are less wise than I am? Damn skippy! Not only are they less wise than I am, they are less wise than the average gas-pump jockey in Bugscuffle Bottoms, Nebraska.

Stupid socialism, why should we care for our fellow man?

Socialists DON'T care for their fellow man. Socialists have a low opinion of humanity, and have no understanding of the essential role of freedom in human affairs. To a Socialist, human rights are an inconvenience that stands in the way of their agenda of reshaping humans into their perceived concept of the "ideal". I don't think all Socialists are NECESSARILY stupid. In fact, I believe that the majority of Socialist POLITICIANS know EXACTLY what kind of a con game they are running.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Phred]
    #1249014 -

Who is in worse shape, someone living on welfare and food stamps or someone with an incurable disease who will die in agony?

You can't really judge peoples pain like that I'm afraid. Someone on welfare persecuted and hounded to the depths of misery and suicide may be in a far worse position than someone with cancer who isn't being hounded by people like you.

If you want a handout, hit on an American -- they're a sure thing.

When I went to India recently a guy begging there said the americans were the least generous of any nationality.

In America it is still possible to become wealthy. In Europe it isn't.

Don't be silly. There are plenty of wealthy people in Europe.

  Your ideas of what causes violent crime are not necessarily correct. There are plenty of desperate poor in Asia -- far more than in America. Why isn't their violent crime rate higher than America's?

If you don't think poverty causes crime you are living in a dream world. Trying to compare poverty crime in india to america is silly.

So Americans are arrogant. So what? Who is harmed?

When their arrogance leads them down the path of supporting a maniac like Bush is when the problems arise.

And incalculable amounts more were spent on developing and maintaining ludicrous stockpiles of constantly obsolescing weaponry whose sole purpose was to dissuade the Soviet Union from swallowing more of Asia and Europe than it had already done in the post-war years.

War is good for big business. So are cold wars and wars on terrorism.

I think that's all the "points" i can bear to respond to  :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The U.S. Needs to Open Up to the World [Re: Xlea321]
    #1249029 -

Alex123 writes:

There are plenty of wealthy people in Europe.

I am aware of that. What I said was, "In America it is STILL possible to BECOME wealthy."

If you don't think poverty causes crime you are living in a dream world.

There is crime against property, and then there is VIOLENT crime (crimes against persons), which is what Thor was discussing.

When their arrogance leads them down the path of supporting a maniac like Bush is when the problems arise.

There's that "leading down the path" mantra again. Is that a European thing? Both Eno and Thor were referring to an arrogant ATTITUDE, not actions.

War is good for big business. So are cold wars and wars on terrorism.

No, it's not. Only people with no concept of economic reality ever repeat that idiotic phrase. Have you checked how the stock market has been reacting to rumors of war?

The only businesses that benefit from wars are those whose revenues come from tax dollars -- armaments manufacturers, uniform makers, makers of surveillance satellites and gizmos. These businesses make up a fraction of the GDP of America. Every other business either is indifferent to wars or is harmed by them -- war costs are paid for by increased taxes (and sometimes deficit spending), both of which hurt the economy.

I think that's all the "points" i can bear to respond to

Thank heaven for small favors.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 |  [ show all ]

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* open letter to Bush from Sean Penn frogsheath 1,394 16 11/03/02 12:55 AM
by mjshroomer
* Research: Teens victimized in police Explorers program Ellis Dee 814 2 06/28/03 03:17 PM
by Zahid
* An Open Letter to the Corporations of America PsiloKitten 1,799 17 10/30/03 03:53 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* How can enforcers be so blind? BowlKiller 970 15 02/19/03 09:01 PM
by Xibalba
* i now understand why we have a no flaming rule.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 11 12 all )		 Anonymous 8,352 223 01/06/20 06:56 AM
by relic
* Is the political forum worthless? Dogomush 928 9 11/06/03 03:57 AM
by GazzBut
* Canada wide open for terrorists. luvdemshrooms 1,551 13 07/13/02 12:05 AM
by Psilocybeing
* An Open Letter to America's Prosecutors Xibalba 812 10 02/11/03 10:52 AM
by MushyMay

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
6,039 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 12 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.