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Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume
    #11637734 -

It seems like philosophy and prevailing research in general has bouts with the problem of Hume and some of the Pre-Socratics, namely, that we don't know jack in the woods.

When this problem crops up, society is normally in high points, like in Greece during Socrates' time and during the "Enlightment" for Hume, even for Carnap Wittgenstein and Quine in Logical Positivism.

Then, as if the problem never existed, people like Plato, Aristotle, and Kant come along and rewrite a foundation for knowledge, and everyone fucking forgets again.  We're awaiting a modern reformer the likes of these assholes.

How many times are we destined to repeat this cycle?  How many times will we begin assuming, and shoving our heads up our asses again?

How many times will you do it tomorrow, how many times did it happen today?  We forget constantly.

If you are being serious, then you're setting yourself up for failure.  Nothing is implicit, any "knowledge" can be laughed at, and we are all full of shit.  Capice?

Edited by xFrockx (12/12/09 06:29 PM)

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: xFrockx]
    #11637791 -

Explain your first sentence some more...


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: andrewss]
    #11637942 -

That words don't do the truth justice.  Is that a little better?

No necessary connection.

Sorry, trying to roll a blunt and too lazy to do more, if you need more i will.

Edited by xFrockx (12/12/09 07:03 PM)

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: xFrockx]
    #11638110 -

Recognizing the limits, context, and conditionality of knowledge does not invalidate its existence.  Just because truth is never final does not mean that it is meaningless.


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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: Silversoul]
    #11638289 -

:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: Silversoul]
    #11638355 -

I never said it was meaningless.  Its dogma that I'm talking about that creeps back.

It might rightly be called second order induction that comes back.  It is the hypothesis that our inductions are truth rather than tools. 


Edited by xFrockx (12/12/09 08:22 PM)

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: xFrockx]
    #11638923 -

Just because some say we haven't found absolute truth yet doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that we can't know it.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: deCypher]
    #11639029 -

Why does it matter?

If I think of my knowledge as a model, or if I think of my knowledge as truth, isn't the only difference arrogance? I will still make the same decisions, make the same actions in either case, right?

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: deCypher]
    #11639579 -

The only absolute truth is this necessary condition, reality.  Anything else is an explanation within it.  "What is really true?" Is a false question that no mortal has the authority to answer.  Might as well ask your father.

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: Freedom]
    #11639584 -

Well put, although its possible to have arrogance in the idea its a model.

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: xFrockx]
    #11640951 -

Freedom said:
If I think of my knowledge as a model, or if I think of my knowledge as truth, isn't the only difference arrogance? I will still make the same decisions, make the same actions in either case, right?


I suppose I would classify the difference in that a model has the possibility of being wrong whereas the truth is necessarily right.

xFrockx said:
"What is really true?" Is a false question that no mortal has the authority to answer.


The contradiction inherent in your theory is clear as soon as you realize that you're claiming the above statement to be really true.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: xFrockx]
    #11641036 -

xFrockx said:
I never said it was meaningless.  Its dogma that I'm talking about that creeps back.

It might rightly be called second order induction that comes back.  It is the hypothesis that our inductions are truth rather than tools. 




I think the dogmas creep back because the knowledge gets into the hands of the bafoons.

society has many people, and most, I think, are bafoons

they jabber and jabber and all they really want is to feed their social urges

some person comes along with great philosophy that brings in awe a lot of the philosophers in their society, people who are intelligent or see more to life than their bafoon peers. These people talk about it and talk about it and make sense of it until it can be put into words that the bafoons can understand. then they take it and run with it and spread it everywhere in a standard, word-based, bafoon style. So it loses its meaning and becomes merely 'the code that was shown to work'.

And people tie their heads up asking false questions trying to get to grips with the bafoonated philosophy. And eventually someone gets it, and they basically say the same thing, but in relation to what exists it seems different. And the cycle repeats. Other smart people hear the words and realise they are saying something important, and they discuss it and discuss it and the bafoons want a piece of it! so they jabber and jabber and reduce the wisdom into a code of words. When it was never really a code, like a mathematicl formula, but a poem, which needed to be read in context


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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: deCypher]
    #11641271 -

"The contradiction inherent in your theory is clear as soon as you realize that you're claiming the above statement to be really true. "

Exactly, its the limit of language.  Its not just the limit of our knowledge.

You have no judge to rule on what the word "truth" means.  There can be no winner in a race without a finish line.  So, the common "we might get there" idea is unfounded, probably taught to you by some highschool science teacher.

Even granted you "know" what truth is, once you use induction to get the "ultimate" truth, asserting that it really is, by the nature of induction, is unprovable.

Your right that its circular to claim we will never reach the truth, and self defeating, but that doesn't mean "maybe" follows.  The maybe is just an assumption as well.

Edited by xFrockx (12/13/09 10:13 AM)

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Re: Forgetting Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, and Hume [Re: xFrockx]
    #11642529 -

I stopped obbsessing about what was 'really real' when I realized I couldn't figure it out. But then maybe 10 years later my philosophical ideas took another leap forward and it seemed new things could be learned, but then I realized I couldn't figure it out again.

What's really wacky is that for many people in the world, a belief in some kind of 'ultimate reality' is their first fundamental belief that frames how they organize the way the see and understand their perceptual reality. For example the Abrahamic religions see humanities problem as being caused by a historical event in time (getting kicked out of the gardern), hence the solution is a historical event in time (the endtimes). I think this is why westerners so externally oriented and have changed their external world to such a huge degree. The common Eastern theme is that humanities problem is a psychological one, so the solution is psychological, hence the meditation, yoga, hindu tradition of becoming a sanyasi after age 50, blah blah

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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